The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 02-19-2013, 11:27 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Joe, I'm going to add some thoughts here, based on the assumption that the Mackies cannot be moved.

Do you ever get time to do a sound-check before the service? If not, what about after the folks have left? What I have in mind here, is looking at EQ'ing possibilities,,, at the individual mixer channels,,,,also, at the mixers GEQ,,,,, and, on the loudspeakers themselves..

Starting at the loudspeakers rear panel, you should ensure that "contour" is set to "flat, (which will eliminate slight lo and hi frequency boosts), and, I'd like you to engage the loudspeakers HPF (hi-pass filter). This really should not have a negative impact on the voices, nor the guitar, and possibly very little effect on the piano. That HPF will activate a lo-cut filter that rolls off the lows at 75Hz and below, but not completely. There's a "slope" to that filter, and at this point, I don't know precisely what that slope is. -12dB per octave is my guess, but I'll try to find out for sure. Could be less, but I doubt it's more. For the moment, I'd rather you use those HPF's, than the HPF's on your mixer-channels. Also, those are "shelving type" EQ's.

Your consoles' GEQ has notch filters, not shelving type, and they're wide-band, so I'd like you to use those as little as possible,,,,, with one exception. The next time you run across a very hi-frequency feedback "chirp", try a 6dB cut at 4 kHz on the GEQ, then try to bring it back slowwwwwly to -3dB, and see if that helps. I'm not trying to completely fix that problem,,,, I'm simply trying to find out where that "chirp" is occurring, and 4kHz is not uncommon. Later, we could look at using a much tighter 31-band EQ, to surgically remove that chirp. These EQ's are much cheaper than outboard parametric EQ's.

At your mixer, I'd like you to engage ALL of the channel HPF's, and, I'd like you to "mute" ALL of the unused channels. Make sure that those channels' EQ's are all "flat", and that the faders are all pulled back. Turn the gain-knobs back as well. Why on the unused channels??? Well, that's because these small consoles can have a lot of "cross-talk" between channels. We want to eliminate the possibility of that occurring.

I'll underline this post, and anything new that I add, will be under that line, so you don't have to re-read an entire edited post, to see what the "edit" was..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit;
Joe, I'm going to give you a tool that will help identify the feedback frequency you're sometimes experiencing. This is an on-line "feedback trainer". Download this small program (free), and play around with it a bit. It's a great tool.

here's the link;

http://sourceforge.net/projects/sft/#screenshots

Last edited by Bobby1note; 02-19-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-20-2013, 05:27 PM
joeguam joeguam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,755
Default

Count how many are sitting in those pews too. You probably have a center-aisle, and narrower aisles on the outside edge of those pews, along the wall. I figure each person needs about 2 feet of seating space, so, if three aisles 14 feet wide total (6 centre aisle/ 4 foot outside aisles), and the church is 50 feet wide, that would mean 8 people per pew. Two banks of pews(left side/ right side), 15 rows of pews long, would mean 240 people. Maybe I'm wishful-thinking on that one.
Will do, I'll measure the church width, no. of pews and approximate max persons per pew.


Would it be at all possible to have those preacher-mics turned off when the music starts? And, what about muting the mixer when the preacher is speaking?
This is not possible as the controls for this mix is located in the sacristy (the door right below the white satellite speaker in the altar photo). Not sure if I mentioned but we don't have a sound engineer that is able to sit at the mixer board throughout the service. I'm the closest thing to a sound engineer that we've got. If you look at the two pictures again, I sit right behind the grand piano and the choir mixer board is located right below the white satellite speaker. Any changes to the mix during the service requires a hike to the board from the piano for me.


Joe, what's important here, is not only the "sound" of the piano,,, but more importantly "feed-back rejection". The reason I want you to try the "Lid" technique, is because I want to put the mics in such a position, that the Mackies feed into the "NULL" of that mic's pick-up pattern. Hopefully, the feedback issue at that mic will disappear, if it's properly positioned and angled.
My ultimate goal is to wean the church off of my personal equipment (boom mic stands and SM58) so that we don't have to break down and setup every Sunday. The "lid" technique uses a dynamic mic (albeit a really nice and expensive one) and now that we're just using the one condenser for the choir, the 3 other Audix dynamics are just sitting in the corner. I've purchased 2 boom mic stands and I'll be donating the ones I have now to the church. My plan for this Sunday's service is to try and use the Audix dynamic for the lid technique of the piano instead of my SM58. If it works well enough, I'll be able to leave the setup there for the other musicians to use in the earlier services. If the Audix dynamics don't provide a well-enough sound of the piano, I'll continue to use my SM58. I'll let you know what happens.


Cabling should now be the least of your issues, especially considering that you wouldn't need more stands or mics. That shelf position would be perfect, as long as the shelf can properly support the load, and that the speakers are mechanically fastened to the walls. You want to be 101% sure than nobody can accidentally pull those speakers down from the shelves, or someone could get seriously injured (or worse). The speakers could then fire toward the opposite rear corners of the room, for best coverage. This would allow the high frequencies to be projected to the people seated under those over-hangs. If the speakers were aimed straight back, that vertical ledge would block the sound of the high frequencies, for those who are seated under that over-hang.
This is great advice and right in line with what I was thinking - specifically for those seated under the overhang. Thanks for reinforcing my thoughts, that helps a great deal knowing that it's the right decision to move them up there.


With the ledge-position, few, if any compromises in mic'ing would have to be made. Your main concern would then be "monitoring" for the choir. I still need to know if you have three Mackies,,,,, I thought I was looking at the side of one, in the alter-pic. (facing the choir)
No, there are only two Mackie's. Fortunately, we have a solution for monitoring - the built-in speakers of the Clavinova! Right now, I AUX send only my guitar/uke channel to the input of the clavinova and then control the volume of the speakers under the clavinova through it's main fader. This works absolutely great. If we're able to move the Mackie's up on top of the ledge, using the clavinova speakers as a monitor would also be great as it is very low to the floor (like a monitor should be) and I would rotate the seats of the choir so that the back of the condenser mic faces directly to the clavinova speakers. The line level output of the clavinova that goes into the mixer board has a fixed output so there would be no worries about sound going up to the Mackie's if the musician decided to kick up the clavinova fader. Only issue would be the choir condenser, but we could limit the AUX send to ensure feedback protection no matter how high the musician increases the clavinova fader. Please let me know if you have additional suggestions here - this seems to be our cheapest monitor option.


AHA!!!! That explains why I saw your "Sunday" post, on what was Saturday night for me(or, was that Monday morning????). I'm on the other side of the planet, in a lil' place called Lachute, in the province of Quebec, in eastern Canada. I originally thought that you went to a Saturday service.
Wow, so grateful to the AGF connecting Quebec to Guam. Just earlier this month I was communicating with a guy from Indonesia. Very cool.


Try to snap a few pics of the pews, while they're occupied. Also, try to get a pic from the main door, looking toward the altar. A close-up of the mics at the altar and pulpit, would also be VERY nice. Get the model numbers while you're at it.
Will do, I have a list of the pictures and measurements that I need to take!


My pleasure Joe. I'm really enjoying the challenge. If we can't move the Mackies, all is not lost,,,,,,,yet! We can proceed with the assumption that the Mackies must stay put for now. By optimizing the mic angles in such a way that the Mackies feed into the "nulls" of the mics, rather than into the pick-up patterns,,,, and EQ unnecessary hi and low frequency content, we can take best advantage of the cards we're dealt. One way or the other,,,, we'll get there Joe.
Thanks so much, I feel really blessed. I briefed my fiance (she's the pianist and the choir director for our 10:30AM service only) about this entire thread and she was very amazed and grateful! She's said that she's confident we can convince them to move the Mackie's up to the ledge as long as we can find a solution for the cabling. Like I mentioned, I can solder the XLR jacks and also splice the extra XLR cabling they have in the church already, hopefully there's enough to reach across the pulpit to the opposite side speaker. At worst, we'd have to purchase bulk XLR cabling which is much cheaper than the off-the-shelf XLR cables.


Thanks again Bobby!

...
Joe

Last edited by joeguam; 02-20-2013 at 06:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-20-2013, 05:46 PM
joeguam joeguam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,755
Default

Joe, I'm going to add some thoughts here, based on the assumption that the Mackies cannot be moved.
I've added some responses below, however, let's hold off and see what they say this Sunday about moving the Mackie's. My fiance thinks we have a good case as long as we can figure out a solution to the cabling. But please see my responses below.


Do you ever get time to do a sound-check before the service? If not, what about after the folks have left?
This is a constant struggle, because I don't ever get to soundcheck with the choir. Our choir is volunteer so they show up about 5 minutes before service. Thankfully, most of them are seasoned with the songs so they know about 95% of what we play. If there's a new song, my fiance and I grab a mic and lead it during service to introduce it. But, I can do some soundchecking after the service as there's no service after us and I have some time.


Starting at the loudspeakers rear panel, you should ensure that "contour" is set to "flat, (which will eliminate slight lo and hi frequency boosts), and, I'd like you to engage the loudspeakers HPF (hi-pass filter). This really should not have a negative impact on the voices, nor the guitar, and possibly very little effect on the piano. That HPF will activate a lo-cut filter that rolls off the lows at 75Hz and below, but not completely. There's a "slope" to that filter, and at this point, I don't know precisely what that slope is. -12dB per octave is my guess, but I'll try to find out for sure. Could be less, but I doubt it's more. For the moment, I'd rather you use those HPF's, than the HPF's on your mixer-channels. Also, those are "shelving type" EQ's.
I can confirm that the contour on the Mackie's are already set to "flat", I make sure of this every service when I turn them on. I can also confirm that the HPF (or "Low Cut" as Mackie calls it) is also already enabled.


Your consoles' GEQ has notch filters, not shelving type, and they're wide-band, so I'd like you to use those as little as possible,,,,, with one exception. The next time you run across a very hi-frequency feedback "chirp", try a 6dB cut at 4 kHz on the GEQ, then try to bring it back slowwwwwly to -3dB, and see if that helps. I'm not trying to completely fix that problem,,,, I'm simply trying to find out where that "chirp" is occurring, and 4kHz is not uncommon. Later, we could look at using a much tighter 31-band EQ, to surgically remove that chirp. These EQ's are much cheaper than outboard parametric EQ's.
After the service, I can force the feedback and then try the 6dB cut on each of the EQ sliders starting with 4kHz to see which affects it most. Not sure that I'll be able to do this during the service as there's always a quick stare down from everyone to pull the main fader to cease the feedback. I'll try to narrow it down though.


At your mixer, I'd like you to engage ALL of the channel HPF's, and, I'd like you to "mute" ALL of the unused channels. Make sure that those channels' EQ's are all "flat", and that the faders are all pulled back. Turn the gain-knobs back as well. Why on the unused channels??? Well, that's because these small consoles can have a lot of "cross-talk" between channels. We want to eliminate the possibility of that occurring.
Now here's some sound engineering basics that I'm proud to say I've followed. I can confirm that the first thing I do before each service is pull back all faders/gains/AUX/EFX, mute all channels, set all channel EQ's to flat, center all PAN and enable the HPF/Low-Cut on all channels. Then, I adjust each channel one at a time.


Joe, I'm going to give you a tool that will help identify the feedback frequency you're sometimes experiencing. This is an on-line "feedback trainer". Download this small program (free), and play around with it a bit. It's a great tool.

here's the link;
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sft/#screenshots

Thanks so much for this, never knew something like this existed! Super excited to try this out!


Thanks again so much Bobby!

...
Joe
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-20-2013, 06:23 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Joe, I'm going to add some thoughts here, based on the assumption that the Mackies cannot be moved.
I've added some responses below, however, let's hold off and see what they say this Sunday about moving the Mackie's. My fiance thinks we have a good case as long as we can figure out a solution to the cabling. But please see my responses below.

Joe, You probably don't need more cabling for the Mackies, since moving them to the shelves, will be closer to the mixer than they are now,,, plus,,, you should have a bunch of spare XLR cables left over from your unused mics. In a pinch, just join them end-to-end. I wouldn't splice cables.


Do you ever get time to do a sound-check before the service? If not, what about after the folks have left?
This is a constant struggle, because I don't ever get to soundcheck with the choir. Our choir is volunteer so they show up about 5 minutes before service. Thankfully, most of them are seasoned with the songs so they know about 95% of what we play. If there's a new song, my fiance and I grab a mic and lead it during service to introduce it. But, I can do some soundchecking after the service as there's no service after us and I have some time.

Cool.


Starting at the loudspeakers rear panel, you should ensure that "contour" is set to "flat, (which will eliminate slight lo and hi frequency boosts), and, I'd like you to engage the loudspeakers HPF (hi-pass filter). This really should not have a negative impact on the voices, nor the guitar, and possibly very little effect on the piano. That HPF will activate a lo-cut filter that rolls off the lows at 75Hz and below, but not completely. There's a "slope" to that filter, and at this point, I don't know precisely what that slope is. -12dB per octave is my guess, but I'll try to find out for sure. Could be less, but I doubt it's more. For the moment, I'd rather you use those HPF's, than the HPF's on your mixer-channels. Also, those are "shelving type" EQ's.
I can confirm that the contour on the Mackie's are already set to "flat", I make sure of this every service when I turn them on. I can also confirm that the HPF (or "Low Cut" as Mackie calls it) is also already enabled.

Good stuff!!

Your consoles' GEQ has notch filters, not shelving type, and they're wide-band, so I'd like you to use those as little as possible,,,,, with one exception. The next time you run across a very hi-frequency feedback "chirp", try a 6dB cut at 4 kHz on the GEQ, then try to bring it back slowwwwwly to -3dB, and see if that helps. I'm not trying to completely fix that problem,,,, I'm simply trying to find out where that "chirp" is occurring, and 4kHz is not uncommon. Later, we could look at using a much tighter 31-band EQ, to surgically remove that chirp. These EQ's are much cheaper than outboard parametric EQ's.
After the service, I can force the feedback and then try the 6dB cut on each of the EQ sliders starting with 4kHz to see which affects it most. Not sure that I'll be able to do this during the service as there's always a quick stare down from everyone to pull the main fader to cease the feedback. I'll try to narrow it down though.

It can be very tricky to find short bursts of feedback, (intermittent feedback). They don't hang around long enough for you to react. If they last a bit longer, it's fairly easy to find,,,, but very annoying to an audience. Later, if I remember, I'll tell you about "cowboy hat" feedback.


At your mixer, I'd like you to engage ALL of the channel HPF's, and, I'd like you to "mute" ALL of the unused channels. Make sure that those channels' EQ's are all "flat", and that the faders are all pulled back. Turn the gain-knobs back as well. Why on the unused channels??? Well, that's because these small consoles can have a lot of "cross-talk" between channels. We want to eliminate the possibility of that occurring.
Now here's some sound engineering basics that I'm proud to say I've followed. I can confirm that the first thing I do before each service is pull back all faders/gains/AUX/EFX, mute all channels, set all channel EQ's to flat, center all PAN and enable the HPF/Low-Cut on all channels. Then, I adjust each channel one at a time.

Excellent practice to follow. Good stuff!!!


Joe, I'm going to give you a tool that will help identify the feedback frequency you're sometimes experiencing. This is an on-line "feedback trainer". Download this small program (free), and play around with it a bit. It's a great tool.

here's the link;
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sft/#screenshots

Thanks so much for this, never knew something like this existed! Super excited to try this out!


Joe, that feedback trainer is a bit quirky to use at times. It just takes a bit of getting used to. Obviously, it looks like the front panel of a 31-band GEQ. When you hit "start", it fires up a sequence of different frequencies, and you simply pull down on the fader that you think is causing the feedback. It holds that frequency until you find the right one, then moves on to the next. Now, if you look at the top of each fader, there are "buttons" across all the frequencies. Instead of going to "start", just click on those buttons (maybe hold them down, I forget), and you'll hear the sound of each frequency. I hope you're better at it than me.

Once you get used to it a bit, you'll notice that the really low frequencies have a "rumbling" quality,,, and as you go above 100Hz or so, you'll notice that the sound has a "baritone-sax-like" quality,,,,, and as you increase the frequency, you'll notice a "flute-like quality,,,, then a picollo-type quality to the sound, until you get up into the really high frequency range, which can be ear-piercing. You'll probably have a hard time hearing those, because your computer speakers probably don't get there. Associating the different frequency bands with instruments, helps you get in the ball-park quickly.


Thanks again so much Bobby!

My pleasure Joe.

...

Last edited by Bobby1note; 02-20-2013 at 06:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-20-2013, 06:47 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Joe, Just an additional thought here, about the shelf-mounted Mackies. I'm sure you already know this, but it's worth mentioning anyway, just in case someone else wants to try a similar set-up.

Unless those Mackies have a "soft start" capability, switching them on and off by pulling your extension cord, may be an issue, unless you could get up there, and turn them down first. You'd hear a very loud "thump", which over time, will have an accumulating effect, and possibly damage your speakers(over-excursion/voice-coil temperature). Ideally, you'd turn the speaker output level knob all the way down first, before turning them on, and then gradually turn up the output-level. To shut them off, you'd do the reverse.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-20-2013, 06:51 PM
joeguam joeguam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,755
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby1note View Post
Joe, Just an additional thought here, about the shelf-mounted Mackies. I'm sure you already know this, but it's worth mentioning anyway, just in case someone else wants to try a similar set-up.

Unless those Mackies have a "soft start" capability, switching them on and off by pulling your extension cord, may be an issue, unless you could get up there, and turn them down first. You'd hear a very loud "thump", which over time, will have an accumulating effect, and possibly damage your speakers(over-excursion/voice-coil temperature). Ideally, you'd turn the speaker output level knob all the way down first, before turning them on, and then gradually turn up the output-level. To shut them off, you'd do the reverse.
Good point here, I'll do some research to determine if there's a way to power on/off the speakers any other way besides flipping the powerstrip switch. I think a good start would be to just call Mackie and ask them what they recommend for these types of implementations in which the switch at the back of the speaker isn't accessible.

Thanks for the heads up!

...
Joe
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-20-2013, 06:56 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeguam View Post
Good point here, I'll do some research to determine if there's a way to power on/off the speakers any other way besides flipping the powerstrip switch. I think a good start would be to just call Mackie and ask them what they recommend for these types of implementations in which the switch at the back of the speaker isn't accessible.

Thanks for the heads up!

...
Joe
It's probably mentioned in the manual; I'll have a look at the on-line version. Are your Mackies the original version? Do you know where they were made? I believe there were USA, Italy, and China versions.

My Yorkville U15P loudspeakers have "soft start",,,, that's a great feature.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-20-2013, 07:06 PM
joeguam joeguam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,755
Default

Here's what I got from the website which is also reflected in the manual (but manual's PDF security restricts copy-paste):

TIMED TURN-OFF
SRM450s can be mounted almost anywhere - including places where they're hard to reach. When you activate the Timed Turn-Off feature, the SRM450's active circuitry turns itself off automatically after three minutes of no input signal. Any time the circuit senses an input level of as little as -45dB (the snap of a finger, for example), the amps turn on again automatically—think of it as a sophisticated Clapper


I know for a fact that the SRM450 that we have includes this feature - because I couldn't get it to turn on one day and didn't know why! Looks like we should be good to go!

...
Joe
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-20-2013, 07:14 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeguam View Post
Here's what I got from the website which is also reflected in the manual (but manual's PDF security restricts copy-paste):

TIMED TURN-OFF
SRM450s can be mounted almost anywhere - including places where they're hard to reach. When you activate the Timed Turn-Off feature, the SRM450's active circuitry turns itself off automatically after three minutes of no input signal. Any time the circuit senses an input level of as little as -45dB (the snap of a finger, for example), the amps turn on again automatically—think of it as a sophisticated Clapper


I know for a fact that the SRM450 that we have includes this feature - because I couldn't get it to turn on one day and didn't know why! Looks like we should be good to go!

...
Joe
I dunno Joe, unless they specifically state "soft-start", you'd probably have to lower the volume on the speakers, to avoid a loud "pop" or "thump". One quick way to find out though,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, try turning them on/off next time you're there, while they're still on the floor.

I saw no reference to "soft start" in the manual, but I glanced very quickly.

Edit;

I've been looking at the "Timed On/off" paragraph in the manual, and looking at the block-diagram. There's a signal sensor that shuts itself off if there's no signal present for more than three minutes, so you're probably right. A quasi-stand-by mode maybe???? The A/C to the power-supply stays on, but the internal signal circuit is interrupted. Hmmmm.




Joe, in your response just above, you said;
I know for a fact that the SRM450 that we have includes this feature - because I couldn't get it to turn on one day and didn't know why! Looks like we should be good to go!

I need a clarification please; when you say you couldn't get it to "turn on",,, I presume that means it "was" on,,, but it simply wasn't passing sound, because no signal was present? When that happened, did you cycle the on/off switch, and was there a "pop" or "thump" when you did that?

Also, did you notice if the loudspeakers' heat-sink was hot?

Last edited by Bobby1note; 02-20-2013 at 10:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-20-2013, 11:48 PM
joeguam joeguam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,755
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby1note View Post
I need a clarification please; when you say you couldn't get it to "turn on",,, I presume that means it "was" on,,, but it simply wasn't passing sound, because no signal was present? When that happened, did you cycle the on/off switch, and was there a "pop" or "thump" when you did that?

Also, did you notice if the loudspeakers' heat-sink was hot?
I actually started typing out an explanation for this and stopped, I guess I should've kept going. When I first discovered the timed-off switch, the speaker's power light was off and wouldn't turn on even though the power switch was on. Because I'm always afraid of feedback in this church, I always mute all channels right before I power on the 2 Mackie's. Just as you mentioned, because all channels were muted, no signal was going to the Mackie's therefore it wouldn't power on regardless of the power switch's state. Even when I cycled the on/off switch, the speaker didn't turn or (no power light or no pop) because there was no signal in the line coming from the board. At this point, the speakers had been off for over an hour so the heat sink was cold as ice. This is, although, another feature that I will test out this Sunday to be sure. If this is the case, I think we're good to go with keeping the power strip switch as well as the Mackie's power switch on continuously and letting the signal of the line enabled the PA's - it is how Mackie designed it.

Thanks again for the heads up!

...
Joe
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-21-2013, 12:23 AM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Yep, I'd say that sounds pretty promising. Good show.

Let's think ahead then;

With the Mackies on the shelf, where does that put it in relation to the front row of the house seats? If we dropped a plumb-bob directly down from the front-grille of the speakers, would that plumb-bob be forward of the front row seats?

Would you have any idea how high that shelf is? Will there be any possibility of tilting the speakers slightly downward? (I doubt we'd need that anyway) I'm just wondering about horizontal coverage. I'll verify the HF horn-angle, but with the speakers firing to the opposite rear-corners of the room, we should be good to go. If the room is very long, we can aim just short of those corners. My guess would be at a 45 degree angle across the room, because the horn is probably 90x40. I'll check.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

OK, it's a 90x45 horn. Kinda shallow, but hopefully fine if the shelf is not too high.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-21-2013, 12:46 AM
joeguam joeguam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,755
Default Economic condensers for Church choir?

I'll measure the height of the ledge as well, I don't think it's more than 8ft based on my height of 6ft. With the Mackies on the ledge at the first post (as can be seen in the choir picture), the plumb bomb would be about 7-10 feet in front of the first row.

Does this help describe?

...
Joe
__________________
AGF rules say I must tell you that I'm a KoAloha Ukulele sponsored artist.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-21-2013, 01:33 AM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeguam View Post
I'll measure the height of the ledge as well, I don't think it's more than 8ft based on my height of 6ft. With the Mackies on the ledge at the first post (as can be seen in the choir picture), the plumb bomb would be about 7-10 feet in front of the first row.

Does this help describe?

...
Joe
Joe,

This is getting better by the minute. Fannnnnntastic! The hi-frequency horn will then be centered roughly 9.5 feet above the floor. The heads of the folks seated in the front row would be roughly 4-4.5' above the floor. With the speakers firing diagonally, there should be no issues. The "hottest" coverage will be in the center of the seating area. Those seated closest to the speakers, will have the horns firing slightly over their heads, but, they're also going to be getting "direct" sound", because they're closest to the choir. Sound-pressure should be fairly level throughout the room.

Low frequencies may need a slight boost, since the Mackies are elevated, but "corner-coupling" will help there too. ( I wish I had a pic of where the speakers will be mounted, viewed from the seating area)

Gooooooooood Stufffffffffff !!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-21-2013, 07:21 AM
theotigno theotigno is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 874
Default

Great thread and great advise here! Speaker placement

I used to run sound at a fairly large parish. When we would run sound for the children's Mass, we had about 80 kids. I ran the sound after the previous sound man was let go. I was originally playing bass and they wanted to keep me playing bass. In order to solve this issue, we ran a small mixer to the main mixing board (1/4" out to DI Box to XLR in) so that we had control of the sound. I don't know if this would be an option but it made my life a lot easier.

Not sure if you're still looking for some economical condenser mics, but if you are, try looking at Naiant. The Naiant X-R Series has a cardioid or a nearfield cardioid (if you're worried about feedback).
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:58 AM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 2,155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theotigno View Post
Great thread and great advise here! Speaker placement

I used to run sound at a fairly large parish. When we would run sound for the children's Mass, we had about 80 kids. I ran the sound after the previous sound man was let go. I was originally playing bass and they wanted to keep me playing bass. In order to solve this issue, we ran a small mixer to the main mixing board (1/4" out to DI Box to XLR in) so that we had control of the sound. I don't know if this would be an option but it made my life a lot easier.

Not sure if you're still looking for some economical condenser mics, but if you are, try looking at Naiant. The Naiant X-R Series has a cardioid or a nearfield cardioid (if you're worried about feedback).
It's too bad we don't have all the details about the house sound system. I presume it's a 70volt distribution system, feeding a fairly large number of small ceiling-mounted installation-speakers, and optimized for "speech/intelligibility", rather than for "music". The advantage to a system like that is, you get a fairly even sound-pressure level at low volume, throughout the room, No "hot-spots" like you get with a conventional 2-speaker P/A, where those seated very close are getting blasted, and those far away can't make out what's being said, due to room reverberation.

It'll be interesting to see how the room behaves with the new set-up. At this stage, we don't know what the ceiling height is, over the main seating area.

As for the mics, we should end up with a surplus, and same goes for stands/ cables. At some point, we'll need to know what those mics are, so we can use them to best advantage (if need be). At this point, everything hinges on whether the newly proposed speaker placement is allowed.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Tags
choir, church, condenser microphone, president's day sale

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=