A stupid incident

[dberkowitz]

I'm with Wade and Michael on this. Furthermore, this discussion, particularly in the case of musical instruments misses the mark. If erroneously assumes that, for example, that a D28 at store A will be the same D28 at store B. As a small manufacturer, I'm more consistent in my results than the larger manufacturers, because I don't build to numbers the way they have to. They operate that they will get 80-90% of the guitar they want to put out 100% of the time, and this is averaged across all quality control points. The problem here is that while Store B might have given me a better price, I like the sound of the guitar at Store A. So for the incremental difference in price, why would a customer shop for a guitar on price instead of whether the instrument suits them sonically?

As for margins, they aren't what you all think they are. Just a quick summary of common wholesaling conventions. In the instrument trade, guitars and equipment are sold on either of 3 "marks": "A" "B" and "C" pricing, representing 50%, 40% and 30% discounts off the manufacturer's recommended retail price. Martin has always been an A mark (I'm not up to date on their current pricing, so this is a few years old). Taylor was on an A mark, but switched to a B mark and raised their prices, thereby narrowing the margin to dealers. Why did this occur? The internet was undermining dealerships and devaluing their product. Dealerships are there to provide customer support and service. Guitars are not like electronics. Although you can buy guitars online from a variety of resellers, this method ignores the fact that instruments, even electrics, have eccentricities that make one feel better to one player than another. For example, a Taylor 514ce currently lists for $xxxx.xx. The wholesale price to the dealer, not including shipping, is $xxxx.xx, for a margin of $xxxx.xx. Musician's Friend lists this guitar online at $xxxx.xx, for a realized savings of $xxx.xx, not including shipping. The problem here again is that the shopper is buying an assumption of an average. They aren't buying the guitar they want, they're buying the guitar they think they're getting. I'd rather pay a little more to get the guitar that speaks to me than save a few bucks and get something that doesn't, but looks like it.

To some, these margins look like a lot, but guitars are not necessities and in order to support a business, you're going to have to move a lot of product, even at these margins (assuming a low price of the 23% discount of Musician's Friend) to be a viable business.

Jim Olson did a similar thing when customers who were on his waiting list were simply flipping guitars. So he closed his list, completing placed orders, raised his price and started selling what he felt like building thereby rebalancing his pricing in the marketplace and getting the return on his reputation and work product that he deserved.

As for strings, except for some small shops, strings are sold as a loss leader, i.e., they are there to bring people into the shop, not necessarily to bolster profits. Ordering them online doesn't save you much because unless your buying them by the box, the shipping charges mete out any competitive advantage in pricing.

[Lou777]

I agree with those saying to go with store A. The sales rep. was fair and honest with his info and his bid. I have worked in retail for ten years mostly pro photography. During that time I have been forced to work for stores like store B and from what you have written it sounds like they are the game players.
I strongly disagree with those that think get what is best for you anyway you can. In this economy I feel that we need to support the straight shooters. Even if it means paying a small percentage more. I don't know why it has become a sin to allow a business to make a profit.

[convert66]

I'm a bit confused by a few responses: If you buy the Guitar from Store A, spending your hard earned money, Why would you need to apologize to the

[PorkPieGuy]

Originally Posted by Sordello

You need to go to Store A and get a good price, then go to Store B and offer the same price less $20 or so. If he accepts, then you can have a guitar at a good price. If he refuses, you go back to Store A and get the guitar for the first price. No quotes, no emails - you handle it all.

IMO, the best advice on the board so far.

[emmonsh]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

The owner of Store A was perfectly justified in his response. When the owner of Store B demanded to see Store A's price on paper before he'd match it, that should have told you right there that it was a better idea to go with Store A.

You alienated the better guy. And you're not a "victim" here. You were trying to play two stores off against each other and got caught at it.

I think you should apologize to the store owner of Store A and buy the guitar from him. And then go visit again when the Taylor Roadshow arrives.

It's not the end of the world.


Wade Hampton Miller

i agree completely. although there is nothing wrong at all with best price and matching, evidently the guy easily figured out you were trying to use him. go online get your best price then do it. but dont expect a local store to give you his offer in writing

[pappy27]

Quite frankly as a consumer you don't owe any seller anything other than common courtesy.

Beyond that it is up to the seller to get you to part with your money.

I simply can't understand why owner of store A would get so huffy. He is either offering the guitar at price $XXXX or he's not. If he won't provide you with a written quote I'd question how valid his verbal quote was, however he could have simply said he doesn't do business that way.

I could accept that explanation and that would be the end of it, no acrimony, no hard feelings, just business.

Then I could decide with whom to purchase A or B.

[RonS]

This happens to me, but I'm not the customer. I definitely side with the owner of store A.

Let me tell you a story...

A customer calls and wants a price on one of my products and I give him a verbal quote. A few days later he calls and asks for it in writing. Something sounded fishy so I say to him “You are going to show this quote to my competitor.”

The silence on the phone was deafening.

“I’ll tell you what, you get in writing from him that he will beat my price and I will give you a price that will knock your socks off”

He tells me he will get back to me in a couple of days.

Sure enough he comes in and shows me the confirmation and with a big smile I hand over a quote with a number that was 40% of my normal price.

The guy laughs and says thanks. I tell him don’t bother coming back here again.

About two hours later I get a call from my competitor and he was screaming mad!
It was great!

[Acoustom]

I don't see anything wrong with knowing store A's price already and approaching store B to see if he can do better, but once store B asks for hard copy proof, negotiations are over and I buy from store A. My 2 cents. Tom

[Troisnoir]

I agree with Sordello, do your own shopping, and pick the best value, but keep it to yourself.

Personally, I hate haggling, in fact I usually refuse to do it, and I'll tell the salesman that. I shop around for the best value (price, service, etc.), and then buy the best deal. Period. I don't use it as a leverage, I just don't shop where I don't get the best value.

I've had a few local stores tell me that small stores offer what the big box and internet guys don't - personal service. I usually remind them that if the only difference is personal service, that's means there better be personal service. And I agree with them, if I find a store that treats me right (I'm not talking about price here), is actually knowledgable of their products, and will help me find what I'm looking for rather than redirect me to what they'd prefer to sell, I will absolutely give them my business, even at a higher price.

The only time I don't is when the price difference is SIGNIFICANT, and I'm strapped for money. But I would never fault the local store if they couldn't match the price, I understand.

[unclrob]

Dang you guys are a tough crowd.Everyone has the right to haggle but also give the business the right of refusal my price's are firm and when I get someone who say so and so will do it for less I politely say that they shoud use them.Yes store A messed up by being rude and store B sounds like they could care less about customer service and just wanted the money

[BigRed51]

Originally Posted by inkbiegel

The only thing left now is to decide where to buy it.
Which store has the best services and offcourse which one has the best price ...

Store A told me on the phone how much it would cost. And the price was nice. He helped me in a descent way and I was satisfied.
I also told him I would come to his store because he organises the Taylor Road Show ...

So I phoned back to Store A and asked if they could E-mail me the price just so I could compare it with other stores.

I thought that was a common thing to do but the owner of store A was getting annoyed and a bit offended.

He said he wasn't pleased that I "used" him for getting a better price at the other store. ...

still I think it's a shame that the customers are the "victim" in this.

Sometimes we all need to listen to what we are saying from the perspective of the person we are talking to ... or just review our own words, to see if there are any conflicts. As an unbiased observer who spent 15 years in retail managing small stores, and another 15 in distribution selling to small stores, here is what I hear you saying:

That while you wanted good service, the ONLY issue was getting the cheapest price. Store A spent time with you, obviously answered your concerns, and gave you a fair price, and you committed to buying from them at that price. The only service store B gave was offering to negotiate IF you brought in the price in writing of the person who did the work. In effect, store B was saying they thought you were lying about the price, and would only believe you if you provided written documentation. Why were YOU not offended by that? After committing to buy, you called back and asked for assistance in trying to get someone to beat his price ... at this point, you are going back on your word, and telling him you will not buy from him unless he is the cheapest (perhaps not your intent, but that is the message he will hear). Of price was the only issue, you should have made that clear up front.

You were, indeed, using him to get a better price at the other store. When this is done, and it is done quite often, it is the store that is the victim, not the customer.

[missouri.picker]

Originally Posted by RonS

This happens to me, but I'm not the customer. I definitely side with the owner of store A.

Let me tell you a story...

A customer calls and wants a price on one of my products and I give him a verbal quote. A few days later he calls and asks for it in writing. Something sounded fishy so I say to him “You are going to show this quote to my competitor.”

The silence on the phone was deafening.

“I’ll tell you what, you get in writing from him that he will beat my price and I will give you a price that will knock your socks off”

He tells me he will get back to me in a couple of days.

Sure enough he comes in and shows me the confirmation and with a big smile I hand over a quote with a number that was 40% of my normal price.

The guy laughs and says thanks. I tell him don’t bother coming back here again.

About two hours later I get a call from my competitor and he was screaming mad!
It was great!

you think that was great? Sad to hear such cutthroat stuff......in all due respect to you, i would never ever do business with you. Sorry, and i am glad you have at least admitted to that kind of behaviour. Have a good day sir.

[runamuck]

I agree with Wade.

That said, have you played both guitars? From the start I would have gone with the store that has the guitar that sounds the best.

Remember, you said this: "My Guitar is my Church - Sordello"


Jim McCarthy

[RonS]

Originally Posted by missouri.picker

you think that was great? Sad to hear such cutthroat stuff......in all due respect to you, i would never ever do business with you. Sorry, and i am glad you have at least admitted to that kind of behaviour. Have a good day sir.

You forget, it can work two ways, and after that incident I never had a problem with this competitor trying to beat me up again.

So don't stand there all high and mighty judging me when you don't have a clue who I am or the type of businesses I run.

[Glennwillow]

I never buy a guitar based simply on price. I have purchased from the same store for 30 years. They discount at close to Internet prices but also provide repair and warranty services and have provided excellent advice over the years. I want them to stay in business. The only time I buy from someone else is when they don't have or can't get what I want. I try not to beat them down on price too much below their normal discounted price because they have always treated me fairly and have been there when something breaks.

This economy has been hard on these kinds of music stores...

Regards, Glenn