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Old 04-03-2020, 10:17 AM
100LL 100LL is offline
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Default Vintage guitar collecting

I asked in another thread that didn’t get many eyeballs on it...so figured I would start a new topic here regarding vintage guitar collecting.

Being new to this world I don’t understand the basics and was hoping to get a free and effortless education

Some things I’m curious about:
  1. Are vintage guitar desirable as show pieces or users?
  2. Are there good periods and bad periods in the history of acoustic guitar manufacturing?
  3. Some guidance on brands, models and types
  4. What to look for at an estate sale (so I don’t miss the chance of buying a $75k guitar for $75)
  5. Do guitars really get better with age, or is that arguable?

I know it’s a big topic, and being a collector of some other things myself (like lanterns, HP calculators, slide rules, typewriters - gosh that makes me sound older than i am) I know there’s a ton of details and wouldn’t know how to reply to a newbie...
Maybe just imagine I’m a 10 year old and explain it like that (which is how my wife handles me, and it seems to work for both of us)

Last edited by 100LL; 04-03-2020 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:40 AM
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Teleplucker Teleplucker is offline
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You are opening a very large "Pandora's Box". There are several answers to every question that you have listed.

At one point I was very active in the search for vintage guitars and I was lucky enough to find some really nice ones. Some I bought just to flip and buy something nicer and some I bought to keep.
That was before the days of the internet, it's easier to find stuff now but it costs more. Since the prices have increased, the motivation for fraud has increased also.
If you don't know exactly what you are looking for and exactly what you are looking at you have a very high chance of wasting your money.
The epiphany for me came from a 1952 telecaster that I owned. I knew that some things had been changed on that instrument. I had the guitar appraised by 3 of the most respected Vintage guitar dealers in the country. I got 3 very different opinions on the originality of the guitar and 3 very different assessments of the value of the guitar. If the experts can't agree what something is worth then why would you put your money in that market?
Not trying to discourage you but there are a lot of guitars being built right now that compare very favorably with the best of the vintage guitars from any period, and there are almost always great deals to be had in the classified section of this forum.
However if you insist in the Vintage quest there are dozens of books on the topic and once the world reopens that are plenty of vintage shops you should visit.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:09 AM
wguitar wguitar is offline
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As Tele noted, this is a huge topic. No such thing as a "free and effortless education". The term "vintage guitars" covers worlds of guitars. Are you interested in acoustics, electrics, semi-hollow bodies, strats, antique 1800's or 1960's or 70's or whatever ? For example, one person might collect vintage Martin acoustic guitars, while another might collect any acoustic from the 1960's, while another might collect 12-string guitars, etc. In other words, framing what you're interested in is key to collecting. While most slide rules will not break the bank, guitars are a higher priced item. I personally have an interest in foreign semi-hollow body "copy" guitars from the mid-60's thru the mid-70's. For example, I have a 1975 Bradley (Gibson ES-355 copy) which is a really sweet playing guitar I got for $2xx on eBay. I've spent a lot of time researching it and discovered that Bradley was the house brand for (now defunct) Veneman's Music store (Virginia, MD, DC area). Also learned that it is essentially an Ibanez guitar (probably made in same shop by same builder(s)) -- one guitar was branded Ibanez and the one next to it Bradley. The Ibanez is a much more expensive guitar. Enjoy your collecting hobby, which only YOU can learn about over time and through research. ENJOY your hobby! Cheers!
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:12 AM
Osage Osage is offline
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[QUOTE=100LL;6337298]

  1. Are vintage guitar desirable as show pieces or users?
  2. Are there good periods and bad periods in the history of acoustic guitar manufacturing?
  3. Some guidance on brands, models and types
  4. What to look for at an estate sale (so I don’t miss the chance of buying a $75k guitar for $75)
  5. Do guitars really get better with age, or is that arguable?

1) They are desirable as both. Some people like to show them off. Others like to play them. Many do both. I play all of my vintage guitars but here's no right or wrong here.

2) Absolutely there are good and bad periods in acoustic guitar history and certainly every manufacturer has their good and bad eras.

3) This is very much personal preference. Some people collect Gibson. Some collect Martin. Some collect Larson Borthers or Epiphone or Gower or Guild etc... Some collect only guitars built pre war. Some collect guitars from their birth years. Others collect only archtops or classical guitars or 000 size guitars or whatever. Some collect only player grade instruments while others only collect pristine examples.

4) Everyone has the internet these days so the days of finding a $75k guitar at an estate sale for $75 are essentially over. Not that they were an everyday thing pre-internet or anything. Deals can still be found for sure but don't expect to walk into the first pawn shop you see and walk out with a pre war Martin for $100.

5) It's arguable. I personally love the sound of some vintage guitars and have been enamored with them since I was a kid. My 1927 Martin sounds like a chorus of angels but I have no way of knowing how it sounded when it was built. My guess is that it was pretty great back them too. Bad guitars (and there are plenty of them) aren't going to magically sound good because they're 50 years old or whatever.


Hope that helps out a little. The vintage guitar world is large and strange and while there are certain truths, there are so many aspects and little corners of collecting that it's not really possible to answer these questions with definitive answers.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:20 AM
Mycroft Mycroft is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
I asked in another thread that didn’t get many eyeballs on it...so figured I would start a new topic here regarding vintage guitar collecting.

Being new to this world I don’t understand the basics and was hoping to get a free and effortless education

Some things I’m curious about:
  1. Are vintage guitar desirable as show pieces or users?
  1. Some are, some are not, some are both. Determining which is which takes time and research.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
  2. Are there good periods and bad periods in the history of acoustic guitar manufacturing?
  3. Yes, both generally and for individual builders. Again, you have to do your research.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
  4. Some guidance on brands, models and types
  5. Depends on year, model, and builder

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
  6. What to look for at an estate sale (so I don’t miss the chance of buying a $75k guitar for $75)
  7. Do your research. The above is not likely, but again I had a friend find a original Weissenborn for $100.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
  8. Do guitars really get better with age, or is that arguable?
  9. Some seem to. There is some toal quality about a good old guitar. On the other hand, a guitar that was a dog when new just become and old dog with time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
I know it’s a big topic, and being a collector of some other things myself (like lanterns, HP calculators, slide rules, typewriters - gosh that makes me sound older than i am) I know there’s a ton of details and wouldn’t know how to reply to a newbie...
Maybe just imagine I’m a 10 year old and explain it like that (which is how my wife handles me, and it seems to work for both of us)
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:12 PM
OjaiAndrew OjaiAndrew is offline
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Some things I’m curious about:
  1. Are vintage guitar desirable as show pieces or users?
  2. Are there good periods and bad periods in the history of acoustic guitar manufacturing?
  3. Some guidance on brands, models and types
  4. What to look for at an estate sale (so I don’t miss the chance of buying a $75k guitar for $75)
  5. Do guitars really get better with age, or is that arguable?

Here are my .02:
I have guitars to play. I would never buy a guitar to display in a showcase. That being said, I take very careful care of my guitars and they don't generally degrade in condition over time.
Good/Bad periods - yes, absolutely and this varies from maker to maker. For example, there is a period in the mid 60s that Gibson produced many guitars with very narrow nut widths 1 9/16 - those are generally considered undesirable. Many people consider the 70s an unfavorable decade for Martin and Gibson but there are many exceptions to that view.
Brands/Models/Types - Wow, way too big a question - that varies very widely depending on what music you play, your particular preferences, etc... Personally, I like Martin and Gibson dreadnoughts and jumbos but many people like small bodied guitars with a very different sound. What is the best car? Depends on weather you want a sedan, sports car, SUV, etc.... Guitars are the same.
If you find a $75K guitar for $75 you'll be mighty lucky. I've found some reasonable deals but nothing in that ball park.
Do guitars sound better as they age: you'll get lots of opinions. Mine is that they do. My favorite guitar that I own is a 1962 Gibson Country Western. It has such a resonant, rich sound that none of my many newer guitars can match.
But, vintage guitars can come with many issues and problems one of the biggest being neck issues. Many vintage guitars need neck resets which are costly (my luthier charges about $850 and cautions against cheaper resets by less qualified techs), older guitars often don't have adjustable truss rods so neck relief can be an issues on some as well

The other thing about vintage guitars is that buying them and not running into headaches and problems requires a lot more knowledge than buying new or recent used guitars. How do you acquire that knowledge, read this forum, read the UMGF (unofficial Martin guitar forum) that has a vintage section and visit shops and play many guitars and ask questions.

Vintage guitars are awesome - I love them and many others do too. Enjoy the journey!
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:07 PM
6 Strings MI 6 Strings MI is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
Some things I’m curious about:
Are there good periods and bad periods in the history of acoustic guitar manufacturing?
What to look for at an estate sale (so I don’t miss the chance of buying a $75k guitar for $75)
I'd like to extrapolate on those two points. I'm too young to remember what little of the 1970s I was around for, but I've read much about the quality of manufactured goods from that period. Little of it was complimentary. (Along with Harley-Davidson, Fender seems to have really suffered during this period.) Were there any acoustic guitar manufacturers who provided an exception to this general rule?

Society has become much more aware of antiques and collectibles in my lifetime. Television and the Internet have played large roles in this. I wouldn't worry about missing such a score, as I think you're extremely unlikely to find one.

By the way, with the username 100LL, I have to wonder: do you have involvement in aviation?
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Old 04-03-2020, 02:02 PM
brandall10 brandall10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 Strings MI View Post
Television and the Internet have played large roles in this. I wouldn't worry about missing such a score, as I think you're extremely unlikely to find one.
As much as this might seem to be the case, there are a fair number of stories of people getting really good scores through estate sales and such. Quite a few people played guitar decades ago and just left their gear in some attic untouched until discovered by their heirs after their passing. At least in the electric guitar world, we probably have a couple more decades of this phenomenon if you think about folks who were teens back in the 60s. Obviously the prewar acoustic period has mostly sailed on...
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Old 04-03-2020, 02:32 PM
WordMan WordMan is offline
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I have had, and still have, a few old guitars. To me, yes, an older excellent guitar tends to sound better vs. its newer equivalent.

If you play a bunch, and hear that difference, well, that will focus your understanding and search.

But getting a feel for which vintage guitars to target and how to go about acquiring them? That’s a decades-long adventure - you either enjoy that type of hunt or you don’t. I love it.
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Last edited by WordMan; 04-03-2020 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 04-03-2020, 02:38 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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100LL - You’ve gotten good sound advice in this thread already, so there’s no need for me to elaborate on that. Here’s a tangible follow up that you can do right now, without leaving your computer screen: go to Amazon and initiate a search for Acoustic Guitars & Other Fretted Instruments: A Pictorial History by George Gruhn and Walter Carter.

It appears to have gone out of print but there are plenty of used copies floating around, so you can buy a copy for considerably less than what I paid when it first came out. Get a hardcover copy.

Of all of the acoustic instrument reference books I own, this is the one I’ve used far more often than any other; in fact, I may have used it more than all the others put together.

So buy a copy of that and read it cover to cover. It’s very readable, and by the time you’ve read it you’ll know far more about these instruments than when you started.

Just one last thought: while I understand the appeal of being able to find a valuable instrument that’s selling for peanuts, that’s a happy daydream rather than a realistic hope. My experience with this has shown me that when the seller doesn’t know what he or she has, 99 times out of 100 that makes them think that it’s MORE valuable than it is, not less. I have seen this repeatedly over the years, and good luck telling them any differently.

But if you’re interested in acoustic guitars and want to learn more, start by reading the book I recommended, then take it from there.

There’s an old saying in the antiques business that also applies here: the more you know, the luckier you get.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller
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Old 04-03-2020, 03:38 PM
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My take:

There are good guitars and not so good guitars. There are some fabulous guitars

There are new guitars and older guitars. There are some very old guitars.

There is NOT a direct correlation between anything in the first sentence and second sentence.

Learning to identify a diamond in the rough at a garage sale takes many years of experience and playing. Nothing anyone could write in a post on this excellent forum would get you up to speed and the risk of purchasing something that is useless is high.

There are so many good guitars at a fraction the price and much more available than "vintage" guitars that I would spend my time there if you are looking for a good guitar. If you are looking to invest/make money from vintage guitars, I think you should spend 10-20years working with folks who know in guitars shops and repair shops before you make any purchases.

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Old 04-03-2020, 04:05 PM
100LL 100LL is offline
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I didn’t intend to suggest that I’m looking to start collecting. Rather, just wanting to start the educational process because the whole world of it is new to me. My flying addiction (yes 6 Strings MI), ensures I have too thin a wallet to get into this game presently.

By the looks of it, with some exceptions it seems the highest end new Martins, Taylors and Gibson acoustics (acoustics being my area of interest) top out around $8k. To get over $10k I’m seeing its going to be either new custom, new limited (read collectible), or vintage collectible (with several multiples for guitars owned by famous musicians).

Let’s start with your top ten list of collectible acoustics...make, body, vintage, etc.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:47 PM
Tony Burns Tony Burns is offline
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Actually - not a good thing to get into
an old saying concerning art sums this up :

If you buy something you like , if it doesnt go up in value
at least you have something you like .

Many so called collector guitars have gone down over the past few years.
value is determined by desireability or popularity
which can change like the wind . many luthier guitars are terrible investments ( thou phenominal instruments )
because ( again ) whos popular today , may not be tomorrow .

right now I wouldnt buy a guitar -unless i got a super deal i couldn't live with out .
But right now I'm more worried about getting by- and paying my bills .
God bless !
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:53 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Though I was never a collector, I did have a 1917 Martin parlor type guitar for a while. My concern was that I felt it was a piece of history and that I was its caretaker.

I didn't want that responsibility, so I ended up trading it at a local shop that does worldwide business in vintage instruments for my Huss & Dalton 12 fret 00. Now that I have had the experience of owning a truly vintage instrument, I am done with that.

Tony
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Old 04-03-2020, 05:21 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100LL View Post
I asked in another thread that didn’t get many eyeballs on it...so figured I would start a new topic here regarding vintage guitar collecting.

Being new to this world I don’t understand the basics and was hoping to get a free and effortless education

Some things I’m curious about:
  1. Are vintage guitar desirable as show pieces or users?
  2. Are there good periods and bad periods in the history of acoustic guitar manufacturing?
  3. Some guidance on brands, models and types
  4. What to look for at an estate sale (so I don’t miss the chance of buying a $75k guitar for $75)
  5. Do guitars really get better with age, or is that arguable?

I know it’s a big topic, and being a collector of some other things myself (like lanterns, HP calculators, slide rules, typewriters - gosh that makes me sound older than i am) I know there’s a ton of details and wouldn’t know how to reply to a newbie...
Maybe just imagine I’m a 10 year old and explain it like that (which is how my wife handles me, and it seems to work for both of us)
Well, this is fun! However, all answers, mine and others are "opinions" - for the real answers - ask someone like George Gruhn (OK there is no-one like George Gruhn).

1. Are vintage guitar desirable as show pieces or users?

Both, of course. But we should define "vintage" which only means of a defined era, not "old" nor good.

There are, or were collectors, who bought them in the way that there are art collectors - as things they like but mainly because of assumed appreciation value.

2. Are there good periods and bad periods in the history of acoustic guitar manufacturing?

Yes, but opinions vary with time. For me it is the 1920s - to about 1934.
Others (more others) would say up to the start of ww2, 1939 or the end of the war, or ...

For me the flat top guitar underwent a change of use in the late '20s /early '30s which does not appeal so much for me. Many are interested only in the later designs.

3. Some guidance on brands, models and types

The most obvious names are Gibson and Martin, but with archtops the names are Gibson, Epiphone, and many others, many starting with D'...

For flat tops there are names like Stahl, Weymann, and many more, but often of lesser value, and often due to their use by famous musicians of that era.

Don't forget the European names, Selmer, Maccaferri particularly.

4. What to look for at an estate sale (so I don’t miss the chance of buying a $75k guitar for $75)

As already advised - forget it, that ship has sailed, if it ever was. There was an elderly lady who took a Lloyd Loar F5 mandolin into a reputable dealer to ask if it was worth anything. It was advertised by dealers all over the USA for $250,000 ... for a long time, dunno what it sold for.

5. Do guitars really get better with age, or is that arguable?

It is arguable, but if a well made good brand has been well maintained AND played, the high quality woods, will have dried out imparting a superior tone.
However, not all will appreciate the subtleties of tone, and some new instruments have a superior tone within a few years. A lot of ifs involved, and tone is a subjective perception.

Well, it's been fun.
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