The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > Other Discussions > Open Mic

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:53 PM
rodmbds rodmbds is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 325
Default Robert Johnson hypothesis... thoughts pls?

Hi! I've got an English course project which demands a lot of creativity and it is to write an essay on "how going back in time affects the future", something kind of like the "Back to the future 2" movie. Anyway, the focus is this but the topic of the essay is entirely free.

I'm a big fan of the blues, especially acoustic. I was messing around with the whole Robert Johnson's death thing and came up with an idea:

What if somebody went back in time and prevented RJ from having that poisoned drink? Assuming that's what killed him, of course. I mean, what if he had lived longer?

I'd really appreciate your help with some input and brainstorming. As far as I know, my mates wouldn't care about how accurate the outcomes would be but, again, being a blues fan, I would.

Some things I thought about:

1) would RJ have had the same recognition as "King of the Delta Blues"? If not, who could've taken his place?

2) Would there be such a thing like the whole "sold the soul to devil" thing?

3) had he lived, would he have recorded more songs?

4) in this new reality, would he be in the same group of underrated musicians like Skip James, for example?

5) where would Clapton, Page, Keith Richards and many other Brits influenced by him, be? Would they play guitar differently or even be famous at all?

6) would RJ have kept famous and active, as Muddy Waters and BB King, for example?

Thanks a lot on any input. It's a good idea for an essay, I think, and yet it's too hard to think about how this "altered reality" would be!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:19 PM
jpd jpd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: California
Posts: 11,280
Thumbs up

Great subject matter! Write a Fiction Novel and score a major movie contract!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:26 PM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,201
Default

I'll play.

The truth:

He likely would have remained a relatively obscure itinerant blues musician. I just don't think his personality or style would have allowed him to rise to the level of a Lonnie Johnson or even a Kokomo Arnold.

For fun:

Lets say he didn't die and John Hammond was able to track him down (a very big if, given RJ's lifestyle) and coerced him into playing at the "From Sprituals to Swing" Concert at Carnegie Hall in December of 1939.

First, Big Bill Broonzy would not have played that gig (he was replacing a deceased RJ) so he probably would have his presence in blues significantly reduced. Lets assume that the primarily white audience in 1939 had the same reaction to RJ that later listeners did. They marveled at his guitar work and were haunted by his vocals and lyrics. Robert Johnson goes on to record an entire album which sells over 1,000,000 copies.

On the strength of that record, RJ is offered (and accepts) the guitar chair in Benny Goodman's band that was vacated by the death of Charlie Christian in '42. RJ plays in Goodman's band for a year. In 1943 RJ and Gene Krupa are arrested for marijauna possession. Krupa gets off relatively lightly (and is eventually exonerated), but the police beat RJ to death. His death is mourned around the world but largely downplayed in America (in much the same way the beating of Bud Powell was largely ignored).

The British latch onto RJ's music much earlier. Instead of having to wait for the 1961 release of King of the Delta Blues there are several recordings of RJ playing swing in big bands and in Goodman's smaller combos from 1942-43 that were recorded as V-discs. These were almost the entirety of American record production during the recording strike, and as such, received an inordinate amount of attention and radio play. Instead of being primarily influenced by RJ's blues output, the British "skiffle bands" are influenced by his jazz work, and particularly his creative use of extended chords. Blues never leads to the development of Rock.

Instead, there is a "British Invasion" in the early 1950s that reinvigorates interest in Swing and big band jazz. BeBop becomes a minor footnote int he history of jazz. Millions of swing records are sold to teenagers in the 1950s and early sixties. Without the advent of rock, big band jazz remains the primary force in popular music into the 21st century. Jazz is viewed as America's greatest artistic contribution to western culture.
__________________
Bourgeois Aged Tone Vintage D
Gibson CS 1958 Les Paul Std. Reissue
Mason-Dixon FE 44 Combo Amp

Last edited by posternutbag; 03-10-2017 at 02:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:45 PM
blue blue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: WetSiiiide! WA
Posts: 7,851
Default

I'll take a shot at some of your questions. Nothing I say here is meant to put down his music, even if it sounds that way.

1. He became the "King of the Delta Blues" because his recordings were of reasonable quality, and most importantly, all neat and tidy, in one place, and easy to license. King of the Delta Blues was an album title chosen by the marketing department at Columbia Records, and was embraced by a less than knowledgeable buying public.

2. Being a minion/familiar of the Devil was a great way to protect yourself on the road in those days. Folks don't mess with the Devil's buddy. Pretending to be insane/touched often worked too, as the idea that you were protected by God still was in ciruclation at that point.

I'm not sure he ever made the claim, but at least Tommy Johnson did make the claim about himself. Tommy is my favorite Johnson by the way

The rest I'll just cover under a couple blanket statements. He is famous because of the timing of the Columbia album coming out which had a huge impact on the Folk Revivalists. In fact think about Muddy Waters. When the folkies dragged him out and dusted him off, they were hugely disappointed because he wasn't acoustic any more. He had dropped that earlier. Guys like Son House on the other hand had to relearn the instrument practically, but had never gone electric so the Folkies loved him. Son House, Bukka, those were the guys they embraced.

The impact of Robert Johnson, in my opinion which isn't worth much, is much smaller on folks like Clapton and the Stones than reported. It's the "Rolling Stones" from a Muddy Waters song, not the "Stones in my Passway". Clapton can't play like him. I've already made enemies with that statement in the past, but he can't. He was much more influenced by Freddie King in his early playing. Did he wear out the grooves of the Columbia album when he was in his teen Emo phase? Probably. But he never learned the songs properly. He sure as heck learned Hideaway.

So what I'm saying is that much like McDonalds, being the most well known Burger doesn't make you the best. Sometimes it's marketing. Or timing. Or both, as I feel, in this case.

Again. Not saying he doesn't deserve to be on the Mount Rushmore of Blues. He does. But Charlie Patton deserves a bigger head. But his records aren't as clean sounding in most cases. The "King of the Delta Blues" album sounds pretty fantastic in comparison.

Lastly, no telling if he wouldn't have died a day, a week, or a month after Marty McBlues saved his life (as far as I know there isn't agreement on what killed him). It was a hard life.
__________________
I only play technologically cutting edge instruments. Parker Flys and National Resonators
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:51 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 4,888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodmbds View Post
Hi! I've got an English course project which demands a lot of creativity and it is to write an essay on "how going back in time affects the future", something kind of like the "Back to the future 2" movie. Anyway, the focus is this but the topic of the essay is entirely free.

I'm a big fan of the blues, especially acoustic. I was messing around with the whole Robert Johnson's death thing and came up with an idea:

What if somebody went back in time and prevented RJ from having that poisoned drink? Assuming that's what killed him, of course. I mean, what if he had lived longer?

I'd really appreciate your help with some input and brainstorming. As far as I know, my mates wouldn't care about how accurate the outcomes would be but, again, being a blues fan, I would.

Some things I thought about:

1) would RJ have had the same recognition as "King of the Delta Blues"? If not, who could've taken his place?

2) Would there be such a thing like the whole "sold the soul to devil" thing?

3) had he lived, would he have recorded more songs?

4) in this new reality, would he be in the same group of underrated musicians like Skip James, for example?

5) where would Clapton, Page, Keith Richards and many other Brits influenced by him, be? Would they play guitar differently or even be famous at all?

6) would RJ have kept famous and active, as Muddy Waters and BB King, for example?

Thanks a lot on any input. It's a good idea for an essay, I think, and yet it's too hard to think about how this "altered reality" would be!
Oh, I love this stuff!

1. RJ got the general recognition due to the 33 1/3 LPs put out under the instigation of John Hammond in the early 60s. One those came out the songwriting and the musicianship attracted attention from young white folkies and blues revivalists, and that was a perfect time to have the record cover claim he was the King of Delta Blues as folks were looking for that, Hammond and the record cover supplied the hype and Johnson's recordings had the goods to back it up. However, Hammond tried to get Johnson for a influential pre WWII concert and found out he was dead, so that NYC exposure could have had a similar effect.

2. Probably not. That story goes back to I think the late 50s/turn of the 60s book "The Country Blues" I think, and romanticizing stuff always works better when the subject is not available (dead or disappeared). The author could have collected the same RJ stories, but Johnson would be there to say whatever he wanted, such as "No, I just woodshedded a bit" or "I picked that stuff up by listening to xx" or "yy taught me how to play slide" etc.

3. Almost certainly. His chief charting follower before the 60s, Elmore James, had R&B hits with Johnson numbers using electric slide guitar. He would have done the same and written new material in the post WWII styles.

4. Possibly. I once planned a Jimi Hendrix multiple alternative set of stories. In one (most likely case scenario) he becomes an always interesting, but not top selling artist, a Jeff Beck-like career. In another he washes out due to drugs, personal issues, and the business, and ends up like Arthur Lee (if you don't know who Arthur Lee is, google him). Skip James was physically pretty worn out, chronically sick, and his personality was problematic. Son House was even more physically past his prime. So you could have had that downside. John Hurt and some of the Piedmont players were more able to show what they could do acoustically when the folk revival took them up. RJ, if healthy could have been a Muddy Waters or Howlin' Wolf style electric blues man, and he was roughly the same generation and background as those two. I think that's the most likely.

5. Those UK players had many models, and electric Chicago blues like Muddy, Wolf, Elmore James, etc were a huge influence on them. They could have picked up stuff elsewhere (as they did), and would have picked up stuff from a living RJ too. I suppose some of the material like Come On In My Kitchen, Stones In My Passway and Hellhound On My Trail might have not worked as well taken into a urban post WWII electric blues framework by a living RJ, but collectors and acoustic bluesmen, assuming they heard those pre WWII records would still have picked up on them. I might have been funny to think of RJ (like Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker actually were) being told on UK tours that he needs to ditch that electric guitar and play "the real blues" on an acoustic.

6. Assuming good health, why not? He seemed as careerist as the next player, an the R&B market would have welcoming him as it welcomed others of his background in the 50s and then he could have transitioned as the other did to white audiences in the 60s. You could give him a particular internal outlook or fate that would stop that, but my sense of likelihood is this outcome. And if you want take a not so wild leap, could he have become a Chuck Berry? Muddy and the Wolf could write (as RJ did sometimes) by adopting and extending floating verses, but some of RJ's stuff showed a flair for songwriting--even, dare I say it--Rock'n'Roll/pop music/teen music songwriting. Berry was over 30 when he hit his stride, and Jimmy Reed and Slim Harpo never really looked like teenagers as they had top 40 hits into the early 60s.
__________________
-----------------------------------
Creator of The Parlando Project

Guitars: 20th Century Seagull S6-12, S6 Folk, Seagull M6; '00 Guild JF30-12, '01 Martin 00-15, '16 Martin 000-17, '07 Parkwood PW510, Epiphone Biscuit resonator, Merlin Dulcimer, and various electric guitars, basses....
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:03 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Isle of Albion
Posts: 22,068
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodmbds View Post
Hi! I've got an English course project which demands a lot of creativity and it is to write an essay on "how going back in time affects the future", something kind of like the "Back to the future 2" movie. Anyway, the focus is this but the topic of the essay is entirely free.

I'm a big fan of the blues, especially acoustic. I was messing around with the whole Robert Johnson's death thing and came up with an idea:

What if somebody went back in time and prevented RJ from having that poisoned drink? Assuming that's what killed him, of course. I mean, what if he had lived longer?

I'd really appreciate your help with some input and brainstorming. As far as I know, my mates wouldn't care about how accurate the outcomes would be but, again, being a blues fan, I would.

Some things I thought about:

1) would RJ have had the same recognition as "King of the Delta Blues"? If not, who could've taken his place?

2) Would there be such a thing like the whole "sold the soul to devil" thing?

3) had he lived, would he have recorded more songs?

4) in this new reality, would he be in the same group of underrated musicians like Skip James, for example?

5) where would Clapton, Page, Keith Richards and many other Brits influenced by him, be? Would they play guitar differently or even be famous at all?

6) would RJ have kept famous and active, as Muddy Waters and BB King, for example?



Thanks a lot on any input. It's a good idea for an essay, I think, and yet it's too hard to think about how this "altered reality" would be!
Fascinating Idea! I am quite "into" alternative future concepts.

1. His "title" is purely much later marketing tool. Discount it.

2. The Faustian storyline goes far further than RJ. Discount it.

3. Would he have recorded more ...Sure he would, why not?

4. Probably. Part of his fame,or myth is that he died so young.
Had he lived longer, I imagine that he may well have become better known, recorded more but never became an "icon".
Note: One of the important factors was the "rediscovery" of delta blues men by British blues fans and promoters who sought them out. In the mid/late '60s he would have been in his 50s.

5. No. I was fortunate to discuss blues players and styles with Kieth, Brian and Mick in the early '60s. Whilst they were certainly into listening to the acoustic players, they were more into the Electric "Chicago" styles, so unless RJ had gone there and developed a different style ...like Muddy/BB etc., ....no.

6. Unanswerable. Many perfectly good itinerant performers have faded into obscurity. It is the luck of the draw.

Who is to say that Snivelling Walnut Jones and Fat Dog Bradley (my blues name) might have overshadowed him?
__________________
Silly Moustache,
Just an old Limey acoustic guitarist, Dobrolist, mandolier and singer.
I'm here to try to help and advise and I offer one to one lessons/meetings/mentoring via Zoom!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:57 PM
Mr. Jelly's Avatar
Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Posts: 7,848
Default

Here's my negative take on him. It's negative because of the type of person he was. He was a major womanizer. He didn't care if they were married or not. The other blues men told him time an again to watch himself as he was bound to get killed the way he was going. He was bound for trouble. So if he lived this time he would have gone on to the next and the next until something got his head strait. Or killed.

So say he lived. I'd take his story into Stager Lee land. He's a great American myth. If you don't know it look it up. He gets more popular and makes more and more money while he plays great blues music and trashes everyone around him while they try to keep up with his partying. He gets away with anything and everything and the world can't stop him because he is who he is. Then he goes into hibernation and teaches Jimi H. how to play guitar. Maybe even Stevie V. By this time he's getting tired of guitar music and starts rap music to change it up. Now he's getting ready to take over the musical world with his next musical invention. Stand by for the rest of the story. :-)
__________________
Waterloo WL-S, K & K mini
Waterloo WL-S Deluxe, K & K mini
Iris OG, 12 fret, slot head, K & K mini

Follow The Yellow Brick Road
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-10-2017, 04:14 PM
Inyo Inyo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,029
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodmbds View Post
What if somebody went back in time and prevented RJ from having that poisoned drink? Assuming that's what killed him.
Don't assume that. An "autopsy at a distance" within the past few years suggests that Robert Johnson died from a dissected aorta--a tear or rupture between layers of the aortic wall--due to complications from Marfan Syndrome, a genetic connective tissue disorder whose afflicated members are up to 250 times more susceptible to aortic dissections that the general population.

RJ definitely demonstrated several key characteristics in the galaxy of Marfan Syndrome symptomatology--long lanky stature; arachnodactyly (quick definition: fingers and toes that when compared with the palm of the hand and arch of the foot are abnormally long and slender); a "resolving/dislocated cataract"; loose, flexible joints; and a lazy eye/drooping eyelid.

Perhaps most informative is this: An eyewitness to RJ's final struggle reported that Johnson died a horrible death-- “on his hands and knees howling and barking like a dog.”

Why is that important?

Because it's consistent with a fatal aortic dissection.

Consider this: One physician has stated rather recently that in his 20 years of general practice, he's personally witnessed four cases of Marfan Syndrome, including one unfortunate individual who passed at a young age due to aortic dissection directly attributable to Marfan Syndrome--and that person died in agony, “on her hands and knees howling like a dog.”
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-14-2018, 11:01 PM
rodmbds rodmbds is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 325
Default

Ressurecting the thread....

I'm SO sorry I didn't follow this one up, I posted but for some reason didn't get notifications of the replies. It's been almost a year since then... I was messing around now checking my older posts and had even forgotten about this one.

Anyway, better late then never! I'd like to thank you guys for the AMAZING replies and ideas. One year later and I'm here, in delight, reading the great ideas you posted!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:49 AM
Muddslide Muddslide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mobile, Alabama
Posts: 727
Default

Love RJ and not trying to diss him, but the "Cult of RJ" I don't really understand. I mean, yeah, the "crossroads" myth, he is a great player and singer, I know about the early, influential reissues of his material, etc. He was the Real Deal. I don't dispute that.

What I do find unfortunate is that most people equate RJ with the quintessential rural blues player. To me, he was really the LAST of them, following a long line of other greats. Other lesser-known greats that have been overshadowed by RJ because of those reissues, Clapton nonsense and other things.

Tommy Johnson, Skip James and the great Charley Patton have already been mentioned. Of course we also have Piedmont style players and others from outside the Delta Region...Texas bluesmen like Henry Thomas and Blind Lemon Jefferson, cats from Alabama, Georgia...

So, not to take away from RJ, but he was among the last to record acoustic blues. Sometimes I just wish people would dig deeper.
__________________
"A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."

- John Shedd
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:00 PM
GHS GHS is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Clifton, New Jersey, USA
Posts: 4,149
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inyo View Post
Don't assume that. An "autopsy at a distance" within the past few years suggests that Robert Johnson died from a dissected aorta--a tear or rupture between layers of the aortic wall--due to complications from Marfan Syndrome, a genetic connective tissue disorder whose afflicated members are up to 250 times more susceptible to aortic dissections that the general population.

RJ definitely demonstrated several key characteristics in the galaxy of Marfan Syndrome symptomatology--long lanky stature; arachnodactyly (quick definition: fingers and toes that when compared with the palm of the hand and arch of the foot are abnormally long and slender); a "resolving/dislocated cataract"; loose, flexible joints; and a lazy eye/drooping eyelid.

Perhaps most informative is this: An eyewitness to RJ's final struggle reported that Johnson died a horrible death-- “on his hands and knees howling and barking like a dog.”

Why is that important?

Because it's consistent with a fatal aortic dissection.

Consider this: One physician has stated rather recently that in his 20 years of general practice, he's personally witnessed four cases of Marfan Syndrome, including one unfortunate individual who passed at a young age due to aortic dissection directly attributable to Marfan Syndrome--and that person died in agony, “on her hands and knees howling like a dog.”
This is the most interesting post I've read in years....
__________________
Free speech...its' not for everybody
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:38 PM
RP's Avatar
RP RP is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 21,242
Default

He likely would have remained a relatively obscure itinerant blues musician. I just don't think his personality or style would have allowed him to rise to the level of a Lonnie Johnson or even a Kokomo Arnold.

Totally agree.....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Inyo View Post
Don't assume that. An "autopsy at a distance" within the past few years suggests that Robert Johnson died from a dissected aorta--a tear or rupture between layers of the aortic wall--due to complications from Marfan Syndrome, a genetic connective tissue disorder whose afflicated members are up to 250 times more susceptible to aortic dissections that the general population.

RJ definitely demonstrated several key characteristics in the galaxy of Marfan Syndrome symptomatology--long lanky stature; arachnodactyly (quick definition: fingers and toes that when compared with the palm of the hand and arch of the foot are abnormally long and slender); a "resolving/dislocated cataract"; loose, flexible joints; and a lazy eye/drooping eyelid.

Perhaps most informative is this: An eyewitness to RJ's final struggle reported that Johnson died a horrible death-- “on his hands and knees howling and barking like a dog.”

Why is that important?

Because it's consistent with a fatal aortic dissection.

Consider this: One physician has stated rather recently that in his 20 years of general practice, he's personally witnessed four cases of Marfan Syndrome, including one unfortunate individual who passed at a young age due to aortic dissection directly attributable to Marfan Syndrome--and that person died in agony, “on her hands and knees howling like a dog.”
In the aftermath of Johnson's fame and fortune which he clearly didn't enjoy during his lifetime, a number of people stepped forward and said that they were at his bedside during his last breath. It would have been an extremely crowded room. I've got to throw the baby out with the bathwater and discount the statements of anybody who claimed to be there. Also keep in mind that his death certificate asks more questions than it answers, and whoever signed it attributed his death to syphillis. I don't put any more stock in that than the "hands and knees howling like a dog" description....

Last edited by RP; 11-20-2021 at 07:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:01 AM
ManyMartinMan ManyMartinMan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: In The Hills, Off Mulholland
Posts: 4,101
Default

Sounds like an idea you can run with. Let us read it after you write it,
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-16-2018, 09:14 AM
RP's Avatar
RP RP is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 21,242
Default

Well respected musicologists Bruce Conforth and Gayle Dean Wardlow have written Up Jumped the Devil: The Real Life of Robert Johnson, and this book is supposed to unglue much of what we think we know about Robert Johnson....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi8u...QDmmSHFaTKMuAo

Last edited by RP; 10-16-2018 at 09:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > Other Discussions > Open Mic

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=