The Great Cargo Truss Rod Poll

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by gitnoob

I view it more like one-size-fits-all socks. Most people will love them. The few with clown feet won't.

I think you need more experience "wearing socks" to get an appreciation of why one size fits all isn't best for all.

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

I think you need more experience "wearing socks" to get an appreciation of why one size fits all isn't best for all.

Well, I am a card-carrying noob.

FWIW, I took a look at the sites of the major carbon fiber acoustic builders:

CA: no truss rod
Emerald: no truss rod
Blackbird: no truss rod
Rainsong: some models have a truss rod!

So there is a market, and the market need has been met. Vote with your dollars.

[Bong Twang Ping]

OK no marks for guessing where my vote went, but to clarify: My only requirement is that it has the means to adjust the neck for relief, it doesn't matter to me whether that is a truss rod or a hydraulic ram or some other solution. Deviation due to string gauge and/or tuning pitch needs to be compensated for.

Bong

[patticake]

after ca went out of business, i went to a few stores to check out cargos. the only model sold out in the stores - including some online - was the cargo. a lot of stores i know STILL have the other models.

so i'd say the cargo IS the centerpiece - it's the one people buy. and while it is their bottom of the line, it's the single biggest sounding small guitar i've played, and i play a lot of them. that makes it stand way out for me.

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

What absolutely amazes me is the attention that Cargo gets. Some call it the centerpiece of the CA line. It is meant to be their low end travel guitar. I visited a great guitar store in Chicago that had the entire line to play two years ago. I thought the Cargo interesting but nor for me, spent most of my time on their full size top of the line products. I certainly hope Peavey doesn't make it the center of their offering, with or without a truss rod. Not that it is not a great niche product, but the centerpiece?
Steve

[Ed422]

As long as a Cargo sounds like the plastic guitar it is, I see no reason to care whether it has a truss rod or not.

Ed

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Ed422

As long as a Cargo sounds like the plastic guitar it is, I see no reason to care whether it has a truss rod or not.

Plastic: Plastics are typically polymers of high molecular mass...

Polymer: Most commonly, as in this example, the continuously linked backbone of a polymer used for the preparation of plastics consists mainly of carbon atoms. However, other structures do exist; for example, elements such as silicon form familiar materials such as silicones, examples being silly putty and waterproof plumbing sealant. The backbone of DNA is in fact based on a phosphodiester bond, and repeating units of polysaccharides (e.g. cellulose) are joined together by glycosidic bonds via oxygen atoms.

Cellulose: Cellulose is the structural component of the primary cell wall of green plants, many forms of algae and the oomycetes. Some species of bacteria secrete it to form biofilms. Cellulose is the most common organic compound on Earth. About 33 percent of all plant matter is cellulose (the cellulose content of cotton is 90 percent and that of wood is 40-50 percent)

Just sayin'.

[SpruceTop]

When I had my RainSong DR1000 Dreadnought Classic model (no truss rod), I went from the factory-setup light-guage Elixers, to a medium-guage Elixer set. The RainSong's neck relief, of about .005", hardly changed but the top torqued up slightly for an overall action-height increase of about .005" at the twelfth fret. I didn't bother to do anything to the guitar and played merrily on with the new medium-guage strings and enjoyed more volume and less fret rattle for cleaner notes without any reduction in playability. On a RainSong guitar, although an adjustable truss rod probably isn't necessary, it's nice that the new N2 Neck, which has an adjustable truss rod and is standard on some models and a no-cost option on others, is available for those who may want to fine-tune their neck relief when changing string guages.

Regards,

SpruceTop

[Ed422]

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Plastic: Plastics are typically polymers of high molecular mass...

Polymer: Most commonly, as in this example, the continuously linked backbone of a polymer used for the preparation of plastics consists mainly of carbon atoms. However, other structures do exist; for example, elements such as silicon form familiar materials such as silicones, examples being silly putty and waterproof plumbing sealant. The backbone of DNA is in fact based on a phosphodiester bond, and repeating units of polysaccharides (e.g. cellulose) are joined together by glycosidic bonds via oxygen atoms.

Cellulose: Cellulose is the structural component of the primary cell wall of green plants, many forms of algae and the oomycetes. Some species of bacteria secrete it to form biofilms. Cellulose is the most common organic compound on Earth. About 33 percent of all plant matter is cellulose (the cellulose content of cotton is 90 percent and that of wood is 40-50 percent)

Just sayin'.

Carbon fibers held in place by epoxy resin. Look up epoxy resin and get back to me.

Just sayin'.

Other than that, when they sound good, I'll consider buying them.

Ed

[Larry Pattis]

“Excellence can be obtained if you:

...care more than others think is wise;

...risk more than others think is safe;

...dream more than others think is practical;

...expect more than others think is possible.”

[JohnM]

I think all guitars should have Truss rods regardless of the material. McPhersons guitar necks, which are ~85% solid carbon fiber, do not have adjustable truss rods. The enourmus CF rod is the truss rod, but it's not adjustable. People will argue that they don't move so they don't need to be adjusted. Not only is that not true (I've seen McPherson necks come back in totally out of whack), but it's also pretty short sighted. Can a great guitar be built without an adjustable truss rod? For sure! But why not use one? Sure you can manually sand the relief in there, but what about the guy who plays really hard, or the gal who plays really soft? Why should they be stuck using the same set-up as everyone else if it could be tweaked, by the user with ease, to be even better for them? What about when the neck moves over time, and/or with seasonal changes? You can't re-adjust.

Of course this is all aimed at guitars in general. I'm not too fond of all Carbon fiber guitars, but I'm a stick in the mud I guess.

[rick-slo]

The neck itself flexes very little indeed. The relief changes with different tension strings due to flex at the body of the guitar near the neck. How a typical truss rod would work in this situation is questionable. You still have the option of nut and saddle adjustments - wish those parts did not come stock carbon fiber however.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The neck itself flexes very little indeed.

That was not my experience, at all, with the two Cargos that I owned.

I test for relief changes by fretting the low E (or high E) at the first fret, and at the 12th or 14th fret (generally at the body joint)....and then seeing where the string height is in the middle of the 'board. The changes in relief (going from light to medium gauge strings) were noticeable on those two guitars in the middle of the neck.

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The neck itself flexes very little indeed. The relief changes with different tension strings due to flex at the body of the guitar near the neck. How a typical truss rod would work in this situation is questionable. You still have the option of nut and saddle adjustments - wish those parts did not come stock carbon fiber however.

Very interesting -- I believe you're correct. The Cargo has no heel or neck block, so the neck/body junction appears to be relatively weak.

I just flexed mine fairly easily, and it did in fact change the relief.

So a truss-rod is the wrong solution for relief adjustment on the Cargo. They'd have to completely redesign it if you wanted relief adjustability.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

That was not my experience, at all, with the two Cargos that I owned.

I test for relief changes by fretting the low E (or high E) at the first fret, and at the 12th or 14th fret (generally at the body joint)....and then seeing where the string height is in the middle of the 'board. The changes in relief (going from light to medium gauge strings) were noticeable on those two guitars in the middle of the neck.

Tested out the same thing prior to my last post as I am sitting here with a Cargo right now. There is a bit of change in the neck relief due to neck flex but 90% is due to flex at the body. IMO the amount of neck flex, what would be added weight in the neck (the guitar is nicely balanced right now), and the general level of this guitar does not really call for a truss rod.

[Doubleneck]

From Larry "That was not my experience, at all, with the two Cargos that I owned.

I test for relief changes by fretting the low E (or high E) at the first fret, and at the 12th or 14th fret (generally at the body joint)....and then seeing where the string height is in the middle of the 'board. The changes in relief (going from light to medium gauge strings) were noticeable on those two guitars in the middle of the neck."

Larry knows his stuff, though I don't have a Cargo, my Legacy does change slightly in relieve from medium to light strings as measured as Larry does. Never really thought of top and body flex. Don't know how you would measure that?
Steve