Benedetto!

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by kkfan

Thanks a lot for that insight.

As good as Bob's students may be, if I were thinking of spending $30,000 on a guitar with the name of a particular luthier on it, I would want that very same luthier to be the one who crafts my instrument. After all, the Benedetto reputation was established by Mr. Benedetto.

It was not a case of Mr. Benedetto simply forming a company under his name and his workers establishing the reputation for him. Instead, it was all him! It was his knowledge and, most importantly, it was his expertise that created the guitars that created the reputation.

Unfortunately, no matter how much he teaches his team the art and craft of making a fine archtop guitar, he CANNOT impart on to the team his expertise. That's something one gains for oneself over time and with much practice.

I suppose it really comes down to what is important to you. Some folks want the name (Benedetto) and are willing to pay a premium and no doubt are getting a top quality instrument out of Bob's team build small shop but a guitar designed by him that is not made by the maestro but by a team of very talented individuals under his supervision. If you want a fine guitar with Bob's name on it, You will pay a premium for it, but this is likely the guitar for you. As I said, it is like buying a Bourgeois, Collings or Santa Cruz vs. an individual luthier guitar.

Personally, once Bob stopped being an individual luthier, he fell off my radar as an option. There are a number of very experienced luthiers who learned from Bob like John Buscarino, Bill Comins and Dale Unger to name a few who all make top notch archtops. I personally chose to go the individual luthier route vs. the team built route. I wanted an archtop made by a master luthier from start to finish. It doesn't say Benedetto, but it was what I was looking for.

[kkfan]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

I wanted an archtop made by a master luthier from start to finish. It doesn't say Benedetto, but it was what I was looking for.

That is PRECISELY what I, too, would be looking for if I were ready with big bucks to spend on a fine archtop: a master luthier to build from start to finish and then stamp HIS name on the headstock.

[wierdOne]

a bit off topic of Cotton's benedetto story (although that's awesome)... I've also been away from the forum for a long time... but... i feel strongly about this topic... and i'm sorry for all the (...)... i've had a lot of coffee this morning.

I've had hand made instruments from top notch luthiers (a couple from bob's previous students mentioned earlier in this thread)... Know a lot of luthiers... and honestly... If the guitar is awesome... it's awesome.. plain and simple..

i imagine that every guitar that comes out of Bob's workshop (even if it's built by a team he oversees) is impeccable and a badass instrument..

I also imagine that if an instrument comes out of Tom Ribbecke's shop it's impeccable... or Bill Collings shop...

because that's the beauty of guitar making... the team that builds it is assembled and hand chosen by the person who's name is on the headstock...

If you, as a player, find an instrument that you fall in love with... There is really only one logical reason that you (if you have the money and are willing to spend it) could have for not pulling the trigger on any of the Luthier "team" built instruments... you plan on quitting playing guitar.

If you are a collector.. then of course the long term value of the team built instruments won't appeal to you at all.... but.. if you are someone that only cares about making music... and you find a bada$$ guitar that's in your price range... and you love it... and it makes you happy... then the (luthier vs. team built) discussion is moot...

I've played a few of Bob's team built instruments, and if you can't make beautiful music with those guitars... then... purchasing a guitar manufactured elsewhere won't help.


edit: I was feeling feisty this morning when i wrote this.. but the point is... if you find an instrument that you bond with, it doesn't matter who made it... Vintage Gibsons fall into the "Not sure who made it" category... so do vintage martin's... or Fenders...

I was perusing the local guitar stores Saturday and I played a used Epiphone Sheraton II (selling for around four hundred dollars) that literally killed every American produced Gibson in the store. The shop also has an 18" buscarino that kills everything else in the store.... but.. the Epiphone was an incredible guitar for the money..

I think it's awesome we live in a day and age where there are more guitars than guns in the world. (although... i wish we could all just be happy with one guitar and give the deforestation a rest...)

[cotten]

I understand kkfan's saying that "if I were thinking of spending $30,000 on a guitar with the name of a particular luthier on it, I would want that very same luthier to be the one who crafts my instrument." To me, that's a LOT of money, and I would want the very best value I could get.

That said, I cannot imagine myself buying a guitar in that price range. Perhaps that's why I'm more in agreement with weirdone in thinking that what is most important is the relative value of a given guitar, more than the prestige of the one(s) who created it.

Yes, Bob Benedetto deserves the highest of respect for his incredible instruments. But my tour of his shop and auditioning of their current models, though admittedly limited, leads me to say that he has every right to be very proud of every guitar bearing his name that leaves his shop. Even those made from three layers of their highly select tonewoods are superb, just less expensive.

But then that's the beauty of the wide range of guitars available today. If kkfan wants his guitar to be made by only one luthier, he can have it, for a price. And if weirdone doesn't mind having the same model guitar built by someone who specializes in necks and frets, another in carving the top, and someone else who puts it all together and another who is expert in applying finishes, that's available, too.

I just know that I would feel honored to own and play any of the Benedetto line, especially one of their flagship models.

cotten

[iim7V7IM7]

Hey, if you want to buy a "Benedetto" Cremona ($30,000), Fratello ($20,000) or Manhattan ($20,000) made by Damon Mailand (8-year shop manager) and his shop crew with Bob's name on it be my guest. I am sure that they are excellent guitars and short of a time machine, they are the only new "Benedetto" guitars available today.

It is akin to buying a "Bourgeois Guitar" vs. a guitar made completely by Dana Bourgeois. I do think that there is some market confusion out there regarding the name "Benedetto" that is the natural carryover of Bob being a solo luthier for so many decades. You are you are paying a premium for Bob's designs, general oversight, company overheads, name on the headstock and warranty.

For me (Key word), I would take a a number of highly experienced individual luthier made guitars such as an Andersen Emerald City Reserve ($14,000), Buscarino Virtuoso ($24,000), a Comins Chester Avenue ($12,500), or a Grimes Jazz Laureate ($16,000) over any of the Savannah shop offerings any day. Call me a luddite, but I believe in experience and mastery of a craft making a difference in luthiery. One person, skilled in the art finding the music in the wood with a specific client in mind has produced greatness and always will matter to me.

[kkfan]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

For me (Key word), I would take a a number of highly experienced individual luthier made guitars such as an Andersen Emerald City Reserve ($14,000), Buscarino Virtuoso ($24,000), a Comins Chester Avenue ($12,500), or a Grimes Jazz Laureate ($16,000) over any of the Savannah shop offerings any day. Call me a ludite, but I believe in experience and mastery of a craft making a difference in luthiery. One person, skilled in the art finding the music in the wood with a specific client in mind has produced greatness and always will matter to me.

PERFECTLY put! Couldn't have said it ANY better. I agree with you 100%.

[cogito]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Hey, if you want to buy a "Benedetto" Cremona ($30,000), Fratello ($20,000) or Manhattan ($20,000) made by Damon Mailand (8-year shop manager) and his shop crew with Bob's name on it be my guest. I am sure that they are excellent guitars and short of a time machine, they are the only new "Benedetto" guitars available today.

It is akin to buying a "Bourgeois Guitar" vs. a guitar made completely by Dana Bourgeois. I do think that there is some market confusion out there regarding the name "Benedetto" that is the natural carryover of Bob being a solo luthier for so many decades. You are you are paying a premium for Bob's designs, general oversight, company overheads, name on the headstock and warranty.

For me (Key word), I would take a a number of highly experienced individual luthier made guitars such as an Andersen Emerald City Reserve ($14,000), Buscarino Virtuoso ($24,000), a Comins Chester Avenue ($12,500), or a Grimes Jazz Laureate ($16,000) over any of the Savannah shop offerings any day. Call me a luddite, but I believe in experience and mastery of a craft making a difference in luthiery. One person, skilled in the art finding the music in the wood with a specific client in mind has produced greatness and always will matter to me.

I agree with all of the above. I would add that I've been told by a dealer of fine archtops that the market confusion you refer to over the name "Benedetto" may allow him to ask higher prices for the shop guitars, but as people have come to also associate his name with shop guitars the confusion results in lower market prices for his earlier, handmade guitars. And, in fact, it is not uncommon to find original Benedettos offered for less than the current shop-made prices, and at around the midpoint of the prices of the other individual luthier guitars you mention. Of course, on the secondary market one can often find the other builders' guitars you mention at substantially lower prices. As far as the 30k price quoted for the top of the line shop Benedetto: It's impossible for me to wrap my head around that when there are fine, original D'Aquisto's available in that range.

[redir]

Cool story. I'm actually going to be in Savannah next month and thought about arranging a visit.

[kkfan]

Originally Posted by cogito

As far as the 30k price quoted for the top of the line shop Benedetto: It's impossible for me to wrap my head around that when there are fine, original D'Aquisto's available in that range.

And when you say, "original," it means the instrument was built by D'Aquisto himself, not by an apprentice. IF the Cremona was built by Bob Benedetto himself, I could see how it would be priced at $30,000. But since it's built by someone else, I also cannot wrap my head around the price tag.

It's like inspector Gordon summoning Batman with the Bat-Signal only to have Robin appear at the scene instead!

[iim7V7IM7]

As others have said, there are used guitars now and then made by Bob that come up for sale for less than what the newer Savannah shop offerings are going for. Some of Jimmy's guitars are also available comparable amounts (condition and desirability may vary on these). Buying one of these is akin to buying a vintage instrument or any instrument made for someone else.

But having a guitar commissioned for your playing needs is a prospective act. Buying a guitar made for someone else is a bit of a different animal. Personally, while Bob and Jimmy made some great guitars, I would rather commission a new guitar bespoke for MY needs. Indeed, the name D'Angelico and D'Aquisto carries resale value (as does Benedetto or Monteleone), I think all of the active luthiers that I mentioned would make custom instruments of equal quality, but more importantly, tailored to a specific player's needs. To someone interested in playing vs. collecting this is an important difference.

[backdrifter]

I personally believe that this thread has taken an unfortunate turn. Cotten started this thread to sing Benedetto's praises and tell of their hospitality during an unscheduled "drop in" visit. Somehow, that has spurred others to state their opinions on why they would never buy Benedetto's current instruments at the current asking prices. If you think they are overpriced, don't buy one, simple as that. If you want to complain about the prices, start your own thread regarding that topic.

I will add my short story to support and return to the original theme of this thread:

I owned a Benedetto Frank Vignola model (Fender CS made). One day, the ebony tailpiece exploded while the guitar was resting on my couch. Shards and splinters of wood went everywhere, but luckily, the guitar was undamaged. Not knowing where else to turn, I shot Benedetto Guitars (Savannah) an email describing the issue. I believe it was a Sunday, and Bob Benedetto himself wrote back to me within a few hours. Initially, he gave me the standard corporate response - "those instruments are warranted by Fender, since you're not the original owner, I'm not sure what they'll do for you", etc. However, he asked me for photos. Once he saw the photos, he replied, "That IS a bad break! Why don't you send it to me at my house and I will repair it for you". Which he, personally, did at no charge. When I received the tailpiece back, it looked brand new. I couldn't believe it was the same tailpiece. In addition, Bob was kind enough to send a whole host of goodies in the package with the tailpiece - two of his DVD's, Benedetto decals, a cleaning cloth, I can't remember what else. And again, all of this at no charge on a guitar that was not warranted by his company. He went well above and beyond, and I'll never forget that.

I believe Mr. Benedetto is a very good man that genuinely loves instruments and the guitar community in general. And I believe he has done a very good job of instilling his beliefs and values into the current Benedetto company.

Oh, I just remembered that I had posted a thread regarding this issue when it happened. Here it is, in case you would like to see the photos from when this happened:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=244310

[JoeCharter]

I'm very envious of your visit, John.

I've been fascinated with Benedetto guitars for years but have never seen one in person. I would've loved to listen to Howard play as well. What an incredible player!

While out of my league wallet-wise, the Sinfonietta is one of the prettiest archtops on the market IMHO.

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by backdrifter

I personally believe that this thread has taken an unfortunate turn. Cotten started this thread to sing Benedetto's praises and tell of their hospitality during an unscheduled "drop in" visit. Somehow, that has spurred others to state their opinions on why they would never buy Benedetto's current instruments at the current asking prices. If you think they are overpriced, don't buy one, simple as that. If you want to complain about the prices, start your own thread regarding that topic.

Thanks for sharing your story. I actually remember reading your original posting when it happened (great story).

Regarding the unfortunate turn, I am sure that my posting may have played a part in the turn you speak of. I am sorry if my contributions were inappropriate (not my intention). Both Bob and Howard are gracious, wonderful people and the small shop that they have created is best in class. My intent was not to rain upon them because they as you rightly point out deserve praise for what they have created. I was merely trying to clear up the quiet transformation of a solo operation into small shop company. There seemed to be some confusion regarding Bob's involvement in the construction of "Flagship" models.

[cotten]

I don't believe there was any confusion whatsoever on my part about Bob's involvement with the building of any guitar in his shop. Howard was very open and honest about the history, trials and successes they have experienced over the years. I deeply appreciated that!

I appreciate backdrifter's comments. I had indeed intended to share a great, unexpected experience with one of the world's finest archtop guitar names. I never dreamed that people would respond so negatively. I thought that was reserved for the hyper Martin vs. Taylor vs. Gibson crowd! Oh well. If a Benedetto is not for you, for any reason whatsoever, I hereby officially absolve you from any obligation to buy one. That should make everyone feel better, right? Buy what you like. We'll celebrate with you.

One of the things I've enjoyed most about the AGF over the years is that if Jim is excited about his experience with a new guitar, whether it's a D'Angelico, Danelectro, D'Aquisto, or Dobro, Joe normally doesn't come over to rain on his parade, carefully explaining to Jim why he definitely should NOT like the guitar that he does. Maybe things are different among the archtop crowd?

cotten

[bluesfreek]

The OP's original story was awesome and goes to show that this company truly cares about their customers and about guitars & music. Thanks for sharing your experience with us!

I won't buy Martins or Gibsons since Orville Gibson and C.F. Martin don't make them personally by hand anymore either.