Strange buzzing sound

[NU9]

Did my own shaped bone nut, from a blank, not long ago - changed the stock bone nut in my Fender Paramount, as it was moving in the slot. I also swapped the stock ebony pins with beautiful bone pins.

However, I recently started to hear a strange buzz at the saddle/bridge area, specially when I play the wound strings (particularly the E string). It is prevalent on all the frets, except for the open string (well, I can hear the same buzz sound, but very faint, if I play the 6th string really hard).

I narrowed it down to the shape of the saddle top (I checked everything else that might create a buzz - internal cables, tuners/tuner bushings, jack socket, nut, action, loose braces, ball ends, etc - they are ok). I can hear the buzz even if I play the highest fret, which makes me believe any problem related to the neck is out of the question.

Is my saddle top too rounded? Would the vibration of the strings touch the front slope of the saddle and create that buzz on the wound strings? Should I sharpen the top more in that area?

I attached some pics of my DIY work.

[Merak]

Maybe you need more of a clean break where the strings leave the saddle. If it is too sloped the string can vibrate against it.

[Alan Carruth]

Sitars buzz because the top of the wide bridge is made only slightly curved. The string moving 'up and down' rides off the back edge of the saddle when it's 'up' and off the front edge when it's 'down'. It has different lengths, and hence produces different frequencies depending of where it is, and that's what makes the 'buzz'. You can hear the same thing in a dial tone, which is centered at a certain pitch (traditionally A=440) but modulates up and down by several Hz. You may be getting a similar thing.

Make sure that the bridge falls off fairly cleanly in front of the string contact point, and rounds evenly back from there. I like to have the top angling back by something like 6-9 degrees just at the contact point, since the string can point 'up' by six degrees or so a half cycle after a hard pluck.

Wound strings can have a problem with 'packing' of the windings. Under tension there should be a slight gap between the turns, but if the string makes a hard bend over the saddle top the winding gets packed together on the inside of the bend, and limits the amount the string can curve. It can happen that the string will continue to rise in front of the saddle, and this, again, could cause some small change in length as the string vibrates.

Strings are the simplest part of the system, but they're not 'simple'.

[NU9]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Sitars buzz because the top of the wide bridge is made only slightly curved. The string moving 'up and down' rides off the back edge of the saddle when it's 'up' and off the front edge when it's 'down'. It has different lengths, and hence produces different frequencies depending of where it is, and that's what makes the 'buzz'. You can hear the same thing in a dial tone, which is centered at a certain pitch (traditionally A=440) but modulates up and down by several Hz. You may be getting a similar thing.

Make sure that the bridge falls off fairly cleanly in front of the string contact point, and rounds evenly back from there. I like to have the top angling back by something like 6-9 degrees just at the contact point, since the string can point 'up' by six degrees or so a half cycle after a hard pluck.

Wound strings can have a problem with 'packing' of the windings. Under tension there should be a slight gap between the turns, but if the string makes a hard bend over the saddle top the winding gets packed together on the inside of the bend, and limits the amount the string can curve. It can happen that the string will continue to rise in front of the saddle, and this, again, could cause some small change in length as the string vibrates.

Strings are the simplest part of the system, but they're not 'simple'.

Thanks a lot - I will have to go over your reply a few times to make sure I get all details right , but this is my guess also, as the only different thing that happened was the adding of the new saddle.

[phavriluk]

OP has encountered a large truth - - - if we change only one thing at a time we have a better chance of determining the source of a problem.

[Jack the Pearl]

Very nice neat hand work on the saddle. You are to be congratulated. My guess is, as others have suggested, that the front of the saddle (toward the sound hole) is too rounded. Especially at the end where the fat low E string lives. A knife edge would be theoretically perfect, but that (again, as others have pointed out) would probably create issues with the way the string windings have to move to clear their bend over the edge.

My guess is that if you take some, just a bit, of the round shoulder off the front edge of your saddle you'll fix the problem. But what do I know? Darn little is the answer to that question.

The saddle looks beautiful, and your photography is the reason we can see the detail of its shape. So good work with the camera as well.

[NU9]

Originally Posted by Jack the Pearl

Very nice neat hand work on the saddle. You are to be congratulated. My guess is, as others have suggested, that the front of the saddle (toward the sound hole) is too rounded. Especially at the end where the fat low E string lives. A knife edge would be theoretically perfect, but that (again, as others have pointed out) would probably create issues with the way the string windings have to move to clear their bend over the edge.

My guess is that if you take some, just a bit, of the round shoulder off the front edge of your saddle you'll fix the problem. But what do I know? Darn little is the answer to that question.

The saddle looks beautiful, and your photography is the reason we can see the detail of its shape. So good work with the camera as well.

Thanks!!! I like tinkering with my instruments, specially as I live in a region where luthiers/guitar techs don't come in handy. The bone saddle was (still is ) a fun project for me and I am learning a lot.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by NU9

However, I recently started to hear a strange buzz at the saddle/bridge area, specially when I play the wound strings (particularly the E string). It is prevalent on all the frets, except for the open string (well, I can hear the same buzz sound, but very faint, if I play the 6th string really hard).

Could be on the fret crown buzz you are hearing. Not that a saddle change would cause that but maybe it has been there all along but you just started to notice it.
An earlier thread I started: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=390071

[NU9]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Could be on the fret crown buzz you are hearing. Not that a saddle change would cause that but maybe it has been there all along but you just started to notice it.
An earlier thread I started: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=390071

I went through pretty much everything that might give it a buzz, including frets, but I don't think they are the culprit. It buzzes on the highest fret also. I even added two blank saddles under the strings and used them as a sort of makeshift fret, and it still buzzes, so, as I said, I don't think it comes from something that has to do with the neck of the guitar.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by NU9

I went through pretty much everything that might give it a buzz, including frets, but I don't think they are the culprit. It buzzes on the highest fret also. I even added two blank saddles under the strings and used them as a sort of makeshift fret, and it still buzzes, so, as I said, I don't think it comes from something that has to do with the neck of the guitar.

Could be but then why not (or very little) buzzing on open strings? A makeshift "fret" would likely do the same thing as a regular fret (perhaps worse). Also most everything sounds like its coming from more or less the bridge area as the vibrating top is where vibrations occurring in the guitar strings are magnified in volume.

[John Arnold]

It buzzes on the highest fret also.

Fret crown buzz is caused by frets that are flat on top. In that regard, it is similar to the buzz caused by a saddle that is flat on top. The string is buzzing against the flat surface.
Flat top saddles tend to buzz on a few successive frets. That is because the string angle changes slightly as you fret the string up the neck. For buzz to occur, the flat top must be nearly parallel with the string. If it angles in either direction, no buzz will happen.

[NU9]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Fret crown buzz is caused by frets that are flat on top. In that regard, it is similar to the buzz caused by a saddle that is flat on top. The string is buzzing against the flat surface.
Flat top saddles tend to buzz on a few successive frets. That is because the string angle changes slightly as you fret the string up the neck. For buzz to occur, the flat top must be nearly parallel with the string. If it angles in either direction, no buzz will happen.

No flat frets here.

[rick-slo]

Perfectly crowned frets also give a string buzz to a noticeable amount if you listen for it (mostly on the thicker wound strings).
In the thread I linked to I went over that in detail and with a recording. Of course you could be hearing something other than
that. I just don't know what that would be given the details of your description.

[Bax Burgess]

Quick experiments: Swap back in the previous pins. Press the bass strings, directly in front of the saddle, firmly against the saddle's top.

[NU9]

Originally Posted by Bax Burgess

Quick experiments: Swap back in the previous pins. Press the bass strings, directly in front of the saddle, firmly against the saddle's top.

I pressed directly in front of the saddle with a test bone saddle that I did prior to shaping the current one - seems like it makes the buzz go away. I will confirm it at my next strings change, when I plan to swap the new nut with the old one, as the buzz I am hearing was not present when I used that saddle. If it's confirmed, I will reshape the the front of the bass side of the new one.