#1
|
|||
|
|||
Two mics into Tonedexter
I got a great deal on a used pair of Rode NT5 mics. I recently installed the latest Tonedexter firmware update and have been researching how to mix the two mics(since I got two)into the mono input. I found this online: Audio-Technica UniMix 2-to-1 Microphone Combiner AT8681. It states in the description that phantom power will be passed to the mics. I have not seen any discussion on using two mics except for Doug Young's recent experiment. I would appreciate any input with suggestions or warnings about using this mixer with Tonedexter.
Thanks |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Technically that will work. The Audio-Technica device is essentially a mixer.
Usually matched pairs of mikes are used to get a stereo signal. By mixing those to mono, you are nullifying the stereo aspects. You might find a great sound with the two mics in different places. Or you may find that one mike sounds best. If I was going to try two (or more) mikes into ToneDexter, I would probably go for different sounding mikes such as small and large condensers.
__________________
-Gordon 1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway 1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway 2006 Larrivee L03-R 2009 Larrivee LV03-R 2016 Irvin SJ cutaway 2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread) K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter Notable Journey website Facebook page Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
The main thing I've been doing with ToneDexter training is recording the pickup and mic, then training to the playback. This lets me tweak the EQ of the mic, if I don't like the sound, and lets me retrain with new software updates in a predictable way. So that's my attempt at "what if the mic sounded different?" Whether that's really useful is debatable, the last couple of wavemaps I've created, I've done it the old-fashioned way, plug the mic in and play, and it's worked just fine...
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
I've been messing with multiple mics and the TD but I chose to record mics and pickup (Reaper) then play them back I to the TD to train as normal. I'd second the suggestion that a second mic of contrasting character (SDC & ribbon in my case) adds more the the process than two of the same.
After recording the appropriate part of each mic can be tailored (bass/mid from ribbon, top from SDC, then swap) then they're mixed to mono for training by playing back: Pickup out L Blended mics out R It was an interesting process but improvements were relatively marginal for a live gig where supplementary EQ is available. I'd suggest a single well placed mic and some patience gives best results.
__________________
Give a man a fishing rod... and he's got the makings of a rudimentary banjo. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks for your replies and recommendations. Doug, regarding your recent experiment, I believe it was an old thread just recently read by me while searching out ToneDexter topics. For the life of me I can't even find it now. You were using a software code that did not filter frequencies for feedback reduction. That is probably what has been included in channel 22 for some time now. You trained with two mics into two separate channels, recorded them and piped the blended recording to the ToneDexter. While my description is questionable it may give you an idea of what experiment I was referring to. As to my original question, it doesn't sound like it would be worth it to try and see. I originally trained with an SM57 because I had one. I was really surprised with the improvement when I ran through the PA at the church where I play. After training with the condenser mic the sound was more defined, especially the highs. In short, it does the job well with one mic.
Thanks again for all your input and for saving me sixty bucks. |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Stereo Tonedexters?
Has anyone tried setting up a great stereo mic thing into a PAIR of Tonedexters and using a splitter to feed both from one pickup? In my mind, it would be an album perfect live sound.
|
#8
|
||||
|
||||
No, but I've mocked this up in a recording situation, and it worked reasonably well. I take a different approach to stereo for live use, but I'd think this would be worth a try.
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
I can add a little something to this topic.
With a mixer or equivalent, and bringing the output back down to mic level, it is certainly possible to use 2 or more mics to train ToneDexter. You'll get a sound that picks up the instrument's sound from more than one perspective. Or you'll get two different mic flavors, which can also be useful if your single mic isn't giving you what you want. However, there is a hidden pitfall with this approach: phase cancellation between the two mics. It is real and will definitely degrade the result. I usually counsel folks to get one good flat pencil mic, such as the Slate ML2, and try multiple positions until you find a few spots that sound really good with your instrument. If you're DAW savvy and have an audio interface, you can also train from recorded tracks, as Doug has mentioned. This allows EQing beforehand to tailor the sound of the resultant WaveMap. There is another advantage: you can time align multiple mic positions recorded at the same time. Time aligning and then blending two or more mics will allow you to almost completely eliminate phase cancellation issues. I've just done a series of recorded tracks with various guitars, using 4 mics into 4 separate tracks simultaneously. The mics were:
4 mic training side view.jpg 4 mic training rear view.jpg 4 mic training front view.jpg After time aligning all the mic tracks, I trained WaveMaps on all single mic, 2-mic combinations, and also on a couple of 3-mic combinations. It all worked well and was informative:
__________________
James May Audio Sprockets maker of ToneDexter James May Engineering maker of the Ultra Tonic Pickup |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
I read somewhere that if you have two mics set up in an XY positioning you can avoid phase cancelation. I haven't tried it yet, so I'm not sure if that alleviates that concern.
__________________
Got some guitars, some keyboards, some melodicas, some skills and a little talent. |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
For me, any reasonable mic in one of the recommended spots works perfectly fine for training.
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
That makes sense.
__________________
Got some guitars, some keyboards, some melodicas, some skills and a little talent. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Our best acoustic sounds were usually achieved in studio using two (or more) mics, usually a large diaphragm tube combined with a small condenser mic. Summing mixes to mono was a standard check and often revealed phasing issues. Flipping the standard console 180* switches sometimes provided a livable result, but was oftentimes unsatisfactory, as mentioned above.
Then, Little Labs introduced the IBP box. IBP stands for In Between Alignment. Brilliant!! One now had continuously variable phase adjustment to perfectly time align two sources, and with additional IBP's any number of sources. These were our "secret weapons". With these, our previously very good multi mic sounds were now outstanding. The original full size IBP boxes were much more than phase alignment tools, being superb direct boxes, reampers, etc. and were amazing tone shapers. Very pricey also but results were worth the coin. Little Labs later introduced the IBP Jr, at a lower price and fewer features (which weren't always needed), so we bought some to add capabilities to our setup. If of interest, scroll down and check out the video at this link, which shows use of the Universal Audio plugin version of the box.... https://www.littlelabs.com/products/ibp (BTW... Just saw the UA plugin price is now $49, down from $99, for those of you into the UA environment) Radial Engineering came out with their Phazer box not too long ago. Have yet to try one, but seems comparable to the IBP Jr. Thought I'd throw this out as it relates to combining multi source audio... Lance |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
To me, and this may not be accurate - James can correct me - I don't think a focus on the same kind of "good" sound that we go for when recording necessarily translates to a better wavemap. The mic is providing data to the algorithm and the data that works best as input to the algorithm may not correspond to a good recording. Stereo micing techniques, for example, seem totally unrelated. James has also said that room acoustics don't play a big role, whereas they're critical for recording. There's always a tendency to think that more is better - if 1 mic works, maybe 2, and if that works, why not 3 or 4? My suspicion is that a clean simple signal as input to the algorithm might be preferable.
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
As an aside, the "Audio-Technica UniMix 2-to-1 Microphone Combiner AT8681" seems like an expensive way to do what could be done with an XLR splitter, unless it has some hidden facility I don't see.
__________________
Give a man a fishing rod... and he's got the makings of a rudimentary banjo. |