Trouble with my Waterloo. (A testament to Collings stratospheric customer service)

[Kerbie]

Originally Posted by rstaight

Out of curiosity I did a search for Collings serial numbers. They are 5 digits, what are the other 2?

It's not a Collings... it's a Waterloo. Different set of numbers.

[canyongargon]

Originally Posted by rstaight

Out of curiosity I did a search for Collings serial numbers. They are 5 digits, what are the other 2?

Waterloo Serial numbers are sequential from #1 in order of production. His guitar is an earlier one.

[tomiv9]

Were you monitoring humidity and maintaining a level generally between 40-60%? This is crucial for any solid wood guitar. Periods outside this range can cause serious problems.

[jaymarsch]

I look forward to hearing what response that you get from Collings. Hopefully it will be useful in helping you to get the guitar back to optimal playing condition.

Best,
Jayne

[catndahats]

Hi Ben, you did not mention where the guitar came from and where it is located now (ie: from the arid desert to a humid coastal area?), and that makes me wonder. How was it cared for by the previous owner? Drying and swelling repeatedly would cause those problems. Not saying it is your fault, it's weird that it took 6 months in your location to fall apart--previous repairs? A friend told me that he once actually saw and heard his top crack and split and attributed it to extremely dry and cold room and leaving the guitar sitting near a fireplace briefly--that is an easy cause/effect. But did you walk in one day, and just notice all the problems at once, or has it progressed slowly? Just guessing, but it sounds environmental.

Collings / Waterloo would have been my first call---before letting someone else tinker with it. I would not be surprised if Collings would like to have a look at it, if for nothing else to determine what has happened to one of their guitars. I've been to their shop. Everyone that works there are great folks, receptive, very personable, (perfectionists maybe) and build to a very high quality level.

They would like to know. And seriously, call them and talk versus email....they won't bite.

I'm curious to know what happened...

Originally Posted by Ben M.

I bought a used waterloo wl14 off reverb.

About six months later it started falling apart.

The back detached from the sides from the neck to the waist. I had it repaired by a well respected luthier who was befuddled how this could have happened.
About a month later where the x braces meet came loose. I glued them back tight and all was good.
A while later the ladder brace above the sound hole came loose on the bass side causing a dip and the bridge to come loose.

I fixed that.

Now the brace that goes across the widest part of the lower bout is loose causing a big belly and high action.

What is happening

It's like it was made with bad glue or something

Does anyone have experience with something like this

[Ben M.]

I'm in Indiana. The guitar came from Maryland so no huge changes in climate. It started with me noticing the back and side coming out of alignment at the waist on both sides. Still attached at this point.
I thought it was probably humidity so kept it in the case with some silica gel packs. It just kept getting worse. I took the string tension off and kept it in it's case. One day I was really itching to play it. Tuned it up to open C got called away for something when I came back few minutes later the back had come detached from the neck to the waist on both sides.
It was just a few weeks after getting it repaired the braces came loose at the x by the bridge plate. fixed that and everything was fine for about another 6-8 months. now I've got braces coming loose again.
The humidity in my house gets up to 70-80% sometimes. I know this is high but I wouldn't think it would cause glue joints to come loose. I've never had issues with other guitars.
I have been wrong before though.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

I'm in Indiana. The guitar came from Maryland so no huge changes in climate. It started with me noticing the back and side coming out of alignment at the waist on both sides. Still attached at this point.
I thought it was probably humidity so kept it in the case with some silica gel packs. It just kept getting worse. I took the string tension off and kept it in it's case. One day I was really itching to play it. Tuned it up to open C got called away for something when I came back few minutes later the back had come detached from the neck to the waist on both sides.
It was just a few weeks after getting it repaired the braces came loose at the x by the bridge plate. fixed that and everything was fine for about another 6-8 months. now I've got braces coming loose again.
The humidity in my house gets up to 70-80% sometimes. I know this is high but I wouldn't think it would cause glue joints to come loose. I've never had issues with other guitars.
I have been wrong before though.

Ben,
It sounds to me like Collings would very much want to know about this because it sounds like a bad batch of glue, or if it was hide glue it may not have been properly prepared, ergo there may be other instruments that were affected.

I clearly remember taking in a D-28 when I worked at Sam Ash, NYC, and the customer had moved from Bermuda. The guitar had been exposed to 80%+ humidity for a very, very long time. The action was horrible, the top was very distended, but with some judicious drying and a saddle reduction it was made at least 50% better.

However there were no loose parts anywhere to be found.

It will also interest you to know that I bought a National Resolectric, second hand, but National offered to refinish it for free because I sent them pictures of flaking finish and other issues that they hadn't been aware of.

These companies are in good standing with their fan base because they do take responsibility for issues that may have started at inception. It's how they improve their brand.

Let us know what they say!

Best regards,
Howard Emerson

[jrb715]

An environmental trauma would be my guess as well. Wonder if it's been played or set next to a fire pit or campfire. I saw a friend playing next to a fire pit and his guitar suddenly went wildly out of tune. While the guitar did not destruct at the time, cracks appeared later.

[stephenT]

You'd be wrong there. Collings paid for a bridge reglue on a used OM after I called them. They offered before I could ask, saying it shouldn't have happened.

Originally Posted by Ben M.

I bought it used so I didn't think that would do much good.

[archerscreek]

From sources I've read (probably here haha), glues can take quite awhile between the event leading to failure and their eventual failure. I wouldn't doubt the guitar was exposed to something extreme before you bought it that took six months to eventually wear the glue down.

[catndahats]

Thanks for answering, Ben. Wow, that's interesting and I agree there should not be a big climate factor.

Your humidity is high, but like here I am sure it varies with the season, but even with that and the fact that your other instruments don't seem to be effected makes the mystery grow. Then it makes me wonder if the guitar was exposed to something with the previous owner, and the trouble manifested once you had it a while. Wooden instruments don't generally explode like that...

I still have my first guitar (about 45 years old) that is a cheapo plywood epiphone, and had the back separate from the binding about 35 years ago....it was 100% my negligence---left it in the Texas heat and humidity in a warehouse for months....that I get the cause, it still plays good and my son has it in Colorado now...guess we got our money's worth out of it.

I hope you are able to talk to Collings/Waterloo. I'm sure they can shed some light on the problem. Best wishes and let us know what their view is.

Originally Posted by Ben M.

I'm in Indiana. The guitar came from Maryland so no huge changes in climate. It started with me noticing the back and side coming out of alignment at the waist on both sides. Still attached at this point.
I thought it was probably humidity so kept it in the case with some silica gel packs. It just kept getting worse. I took the string tension off and kept it in it's case. One day I was really itching to play it. Tuned it up to open C got called away for something when I came back few minutes later the back had come detached from the neck to the waist on both sides.
It was just a few weeks after getting it repaired the braces came loose at the x by the bridge plate. fixed that and everything was fine for about another 6-8 months. now I've got braces coming loose again.
The humidity in my house gets up to 70-80% sometimes. I know this is high but I wouldn't think it would cause glue joints to come loose. I've never had issues with other guitars.
I have been wrong before though.

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

There may be a batch problem with bad glue from Collings. glue or something, anyhow. And if there is a pattern of this happening with others, it would not surprise me if they made it up to you (and everyone else). Kind of like a recall; it would cut across warranties. Well worth the time and expense of a call.

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Ben,
It sounds to me like Collings would very much want to know about this because it sounds like a bad batch of glue,.....

As many have said, this is my thought as well. There's almost no way, short of extreme abuse with heat and/or humidity, that a guitar made by a top-tier factory would experience this type of failure. Also, Collings is not a small or boutique builder. They are an instrument factory, on a smaller scale that Taylor or Martin, but a factory just the same. Everyone said to "call" Collings and this is what I would do. Emails just don't cut it for me when business is involved. I'm sure they will want to see the guitar.

[frankmcr]

Seems like if a famous guitar company used a batch of glue that could make this happen

Originally Posted by Ben M.

The back detached from the sides from the neck to the waist.
About a month later where the x braces meet came loose.
A while later the ladder brace above the sound hole came loose on the bass side causing a dip and the bridge to come loose.
Now the brace that goes across the widest part of the lower bout is loose causing a big belly and high action.

we'd have heard about it before now!

[Mark L]

To the OP:

Upon further consideration, and alas still no pictures, my inclination is to suspect HEAT as the primary culprit in a case so described, rather than humidity. Unless the humidity came to immersion....

Part of my own learning process was to have a bridge come unglued from a classical guitar left in the back seat of a car on a very hot day. 1973, at a beach outside Athens, and it still is in my mind. And...I still have the repaired guitar!

On a used guitar from a private seller, with an unknown history, I’d say it’s “buyer beware” rather than “I got a lemon”. Would you say that about a used car from a private seller? Maybe, but private re-sale is in a different category than original purchase, or even private dealer re-sale, mostly.

The good thing is, as many have chimed, it came from Collings. They are very upright and straighforward to say the least. If it’s indeed materials and construction, I bet they make it right. And yes, they definitely will want the feedback no matter where the issue lies. Collings, as Bill Collings intended, is eternally in continual improvement mode.

If it’s post purchase handling, believe it or not they may still offer you an acceptable remedy.

One heck of a first post OP. Good luck with the outcome! Guitars are not sheet metal, and problems with a prized instrument do hurt.

[PTL]

Following.