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  #16  
Old 02-14-2022, 05:03 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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The current Godin 5th Ave/Kingpin are inexpensive and nicely fit this vibe. (the everyman's plywood archtop of the 50s)
My last 3 guitars have been from Godin (two Art & Lutherie and a Seagull) and in 70 years time they are going to be the Regal/Stella/Harmony/Kalamazoo guitars that folks will search out for their old plywood sound!

A Godin archtop looks like it could suit me well. If I can find one!!! I really need to try one out to see if it's the sort of timbre that would work with my voice and basic cowboy chord accompaniment style. As basically it would be my only guitar so it would go everywhere (camping, local gigs, old timw/bluegrass sessions, pub evenings etc).
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  #17  
Old 02-15-2022, 07:00 AM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
My last 3 guitars have been from Godin (two Art & Lutherie and a Seagull)...A Godin archtop looks like it could suit me well. If I can find one!!! I really need to try one out to see if it's the sort of timbre that would work with my voice and basic cowboy chord accompaniment style. As basically it would be my only guitar so it would go everywhere (camping, local gigs, old time/bluegrass sessions, pub evenings etc).
Since you're already in the Godin camp you'll find a lot to like from the get-go - it handles exactly like one of their mini-jumbos (most like the old Rustic Entourage IME) and it's built to the same standards of QC and playability - and having done so myself, I wouldn't think twice about purchasing one sight unseen/unplayed from a reputable seller. Here's a hands-on review for your viewing pleasure (BTW I have the same sunburst model) which, while offering an excellent reference point, doesn't paint the whole picture of what this little bargain box can do - I've had it set up in the past with 14's for jazz comping (yeah, it's got that bark and cut - contrary to what this guy says about lack of volume), and with a set of Martin Monel 13's I find it'll not only give you that classic "dry" sound I assume you're after, but cover just about any of your intended applications credibly (if you've never used them, Monels are "slinkier" feeling than PB or 80-20 - fine for fingerstyle while still providing the tension necessary to drive the top) - and while the P-90 Kingpin is nice as a dual-duty instrument, I personally find the all-acoustic version to be more responsive to a lighter touch:

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  #18  
Old 02-15-2022, 05:13 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
Since you're already in the Godin camp you'll find a lot to like from the get-go - it handles exactly like one of their mini-jumbos (most like the old Rustic Entourage IME) and it's built to the same standards of QC and playability - and having done so myself, I wouldn't think twice about purchasing one sight unseen/unplayed from a reputable seller. Here's a hands-on review for your viewing pleasure (BTW I have the same sunburst model) which, while offering an excellent reference point, doesn't paint the whole picture of what this little bargain box can do - I've had it set up in the past with 14's for jazz comping (yeah, it's got that bark and cut - contrary to what this guy says about lack of volume), and with a set of Martin Monel 13's I find it'll not only give you that classic "dry" sound I assume you're after, but cover just about any of your intended applications credibly (if you've never used them, Monels are "slinkier" feeling than PB or 80-20 - fine for fingerstyle while still providing the tension necessary to drive the top) - and while the P-90 Kingpin is nice as a dual-duty instrument, I personally find the all-acoustic version to be more responsive to a lighter touch:

Well, if I can get this sort of timbre out of a Godin 5th Avenue then I'd be happy:

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I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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  #19  
Old 02-15-2022, 11:52 PM
Artomas Artomas is offline
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I don't know about the Godin, but the mid-century Harmony archtones aren't "plywood guitars" as people in this thread claimed. They're solid birch top, sides, and back. At least, I think the vast majority were. Mine was a cheap student model (no binding) and is solid birch everywhere, including the nut.

They're shaped like the old expensive "jazz" archtops, but they're extremely lightweight, with pressed rather than carved tops, and ladder braced. It's a different type of guitar, more bark than meow. Better sonic separation of the strings without so many rich sustaining overtones of the heavier archtops. Though it's not too dry - you can hear the reverb and feel it against your body through the guitar's back. You can play it so that the mids really cut thru, and it's light enough for shy fingerstyle to still ring out. There are YouTube demos that show but the gentle folkish and cutting bluesish tones that these guitars can give.

The store I went to the other day has a newer Harmony of my model, but with a different finish, for $115. It had a small patch in the back towards the bottom, and the neck had lifted just a tiny bit at the heel, but the action was still pretty good. After seeing that, in a physical store no less, the $400 price sounds like a lot to me... but the 1930s is pretty old, pre-WWII, and that's a cool fretboard and it's probably a less common model, right?

The one I saw in the store (Harmony H1215) was probably from the 60s, and mine (H1214) is from 1949. The different number is because of the finish, not the dates. The 1215 is the more common burst, and mine is supposed to be painted to look like flame maple, but ironically it looks more like paper-birch bark, which is awesome! I'm into that, and it's in fabulous condition instead of fair, so I paid more than $115. But if someone just wanted to try this type of guitar out, that $115 one sounded and played the part. They're not that rare or built like a tank, so I think the Reverb prices that I see, for squirrelly condition - even maybe literally - must be California prices, or something. Or maybe the wealthiest people are planning to use old guitars as currency, and they're hoarding all the fancier ones already, so now they're after these?

I'd love it if acoustic blues, folk, Americana etc created enough demand for this particular tone and style so that Harmony would make new archtones and so on, in the same way, so they sound right, and not too expensive. By "in the same way", I mean if they originally peeled rather than sawed the wood, then that's what they should do for a reproduction. If the vintage prices keep going up, then they surely will make reissues at some point when the market is ready, if there are enough big birches left. I think maple and similar species could substitute.

I'd be curious if anyone makes a contemporary lightweight ladder braced solid birch guitar that can get that similar vibe, but isn't a boutique or custom build. There seems to be a market for new vintage-styled parlor guitars, even though the original ones aren't that expensive, so it's possible. For some reason I assumed the Loar and Godin were designed after the more expensive sounding archtops, but maybe someone can debunk that?
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  #20  
Old 02-16-2022, 03:35 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
Since you're already in the Godin camp you'll find a lot to like from the get-go - it handles exactly like one of their mini-jumbos (most like the old Rustic Entourage IME) and it's built to the same standards of QC and playability - and having done so myself, I wouldn't think twice about purchasing one sight unseen/unplayed from a reputable seller. Here's a hands-on review for your viewing pleasure (BTW I have the same sunburst model) which, while offering an excellent reference point, doesn't paint the whole picture of what this little bargain box can do - I've had it set up in the past with 14's for jazz comping (yeah, it's got that bark and cut - contrary to what this guy says about lack of volume), and with a set of Martin Monel 13's I find it'll not only give you that classic "dry" sound I assume you're after, but cover just about any of your intended applications credibly (if you've never used them, Monels are "slinkier" feeling than PB or 80-20 - fine for fingerstyle while still providing the tension necessary to drive the top) - and while the P-90 Kingpin is nice as a dual-duty instrument, I personally find the all-acoustic version to be more responsive to a lighter touch:

Steve, I have found a second hand Godin 5th Avenue acoustic (the same as the one in the video) in a shop in Liverpool. It is on its way to me with a 14 day free returns policy. So I can see if the concept will work for me. If I do keep it then I sort of know that I'm going to have to make a new nut because the spacing system Tusq uses for those Godin brand 1.72 nuts doesn't work for my damaged left hand. It is equal spaces and I need proportional centres or what's left of my index finger wont get between the strings!!! No big deal, I have made literally hundreds of nuts! And I'd like to have a go at carving a solid bridge (rather than the Tusq adjustable that's fitted). But I'm getting well ahead of myself!

I'm used to using Monel strings on other guitars, so I'll give them a try.

Thanks for your advice. I'm looking forward to a "try before you buy" weekend.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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  #21  
Old 02-16-2022, 06:47 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Originally Posted by Artomas View Post

I'd be curious if anyone makes a contemporary lightweight ladder braced solid birch guitar that can get that similar vibe, but isn't a boutique or custom build. There seems to be a market for new vintage-styled parlor guitars, even though the original ones aren't that expensive, so it's possible. For some reason I assumed the Loar and Godin were designed after the more expensive sounding archtops, but maybe someone can debunk that?


I think that Robert Godin has done his own thing with the 5th Avenue archtops, rather than directly copy anything old. This is par for the course with the Godin brands - and does make for guitars with unique character (at a cheap price point). The wild cherry plywood he is talking about they make themselves (it is mostly cherry outer veneers with a maple middle). They make so much of the stuff, all the way from felling the trees to the finished board, that they supply the furniture and motor industries with plywood. But it does make brilliant guitars. There flattops have a lot of punch and ring, but quite a dry sound - like old maple but right out the box. I'm hoping that the 5th Avenue I have on the way will have some of that timbre but with an archtop minimalist flavour. Anyway, I should find out tomorrow!

There is a US company making flattops out of Finnish birch (plywood, not solid) and that's Beard. Have a listen to their Decophonic Flattops on youtube.
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I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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  #22  
Old 02-16-2022, 09:37 AM
Dadzmad Dadzmad is offline
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Artomas is correct - the old Harmonys are pressed Birch like my Stella/Harmony 12 string flat top that I bought in 1967 (which I still have but is sadly pulling itself apart and unplayable) The plywood guitars I was referring to are the Gibson ES125 type of guitars that were made by several of the old guitar builders and were very common in the 50's. FWIW the Harmony brand lives on - I have a recent Harmony Juno (a quality piece) built in the old Gibson Plant in Kalamazoo where Heritage guitars are made. The recent Harmonys are not inexpensive. Their semi hollow Comet goes for $1500. I doubt that they would build a hollow body acoustic at the quality/price point of the asian guitars being built today.
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  #23  
Old 02-16-2022, 02:12 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
...I'd like to have a go at carving a solid bridge (rather than the Tusq adjustable that's fitted)...I'm used to using Monel strings on other guitars, so I'll give them a try...I'm looking forward to a "try before you buy" weekend.
While you're waiting until you get around to carving a solid bridge, IME one of these will go a long way toward giving you the tone you're after:



https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...-guitar-bridge

Cheap enough, you can slot them to any pattern/spacing you need, and mine (I'm using the rosewood version) needed no fitting whatsoever...
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  #24  
Old 02-16-2022, 02:32 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
While you're waiting until you get around to carving a solid bridge, IME one of these will go a long way toward giving you the tone you're after:



https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...-guitar-bridge

Cheap enough, you can slot them to any pattern/spacing you need, and mine (I'm using the rosewood version) needed no fitting whatsoever...
I'll see if I can find something like that in the UK, Steve. Do you have the original tusq bridge on your 5th Avenue or have you changed it?
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I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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  #25  
Old 02-16-2022, 02:33 PM
H165 H165 is offline
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For a while, I’ve been interested in the concept of making music with very inexpensive vintage instruments.
My AGF name sorta gives me away - I've been doing this for decades. Recently made a new bridge for my Harmony - made a big difference to me. Here's a "before" picture...the day I got it.
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  #26  
Old 02-16-2022, 08:56 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
I'll see if I can find something like that in the UK, Steve. Do you have the original Tusq bridge on your 5th Avenue or have you changed it?
The older ones like mine (I bought it in 2007) came with a wood (species/origin unknown) bridge, but I changed it out for the StewMac anyway - broadens the sweet spot, gives the individual notes more definition, and looks a lot better to boot . Interestingly enough, I kept the Tusq bridge on my 2012 CW II electric - their single-cutaway, dual P-90 answer to the Gibson ES-175, but physically lighter (mine weighs just a tick over five pounds) and sonically less thuddy thanks to the Gretsch-like ultra-thin body woods and underwound dogear pickups; FWIW I use flatwounds (initially 13's, more recently 12's) and I find it provides more clarity/crispness/edge, whereas the wooden bridge sacrificed some of the treble and most of the upper harmonics - fine for straight-ahead jazz work, but I need the extra top end for rockabilly/roots/Americana. Highly recommended when/if you're in the market for a hollowbody electric BTW: I'm an old Gretsch guy dating back to the early-60's and, when it came time to put my trusty '64 Double Anniversary into a well-earned semi-retirement (the Korean-made 5400/5600-Series Electromatics were still a year away), the CW II presented itself as a viable alternative - still in production FYI (along with a dual-humbucker version), and as I did with both of my Godins I wouldn't think twice about buying sight unseen/unplayed...

Here's a couple pics:

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Last edited by Steve DeRosa; 02-16-2022 at 09:03 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-17-2022, 04:59 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Well the 5th Avenue has arrived. First impression is that the guitar is incredibly "lively". It was fitted with 12-53 pb strings. I found a set of Newton pure nickel 13-56 in a box and they are much better. The guitar needed more relief, a higher action at the bridge, and the bridge moving to intonate the instrument.

I'm still finding it very lively, too much presense. I think that it is the Tusq bridge (after all it is a bone substitute). When I tap or scratch the bridge it is all top end. I have a rosewood bridge on the way that I hope will deaden the top end and calm the guitar down.

I'm going to have to get used to the instrument. I think that the sparse timbre I want is in it somewhere, I just need to work out how to get at it!

It is incredibly light weight, seems well made, and has bags of volume. I just hope that I can roll off that darn presense knob. I have two weeks to send it back if the new bridge does not calm it down.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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  #28  
Old 02-17-2022, 08:17 PM
Dadzmad Dadzmad is offline
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Robin W - if you are looking for a more fundamental (straight up) sound you may want to try some flat wound strings - I've used Rotosound Monel Top Tapes on my Kingpin, less expensive than some of the top of the line jazz sets but good enough for a retro/roots sound. Enjoy your Godin 5th Ave - these sound great paired with another player on a flat top.
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  #29  
Old 02-17-2022, 08:50 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
...Well, the 5th Avenue has arrived. First impression is that the guitar is incredibly "lively." It was fitted with 12-53 PB strings. I found a set of Newton pure nickel 13-56 in a box and they are much better. The guitar needed more relief, a higher action at the bridge, and the bridge moving to intonate the instrument.

I'm still finding it very lively, too much presence. I think that it is the Tusq bridge (after all it is a bone substitute). When I tap or scratch the bridge it is all top end. I have a rosewood bridge on the way that I hope will deaden the top end and calm the guitar down.

I'm going to have to get used to the instrument. I think that the sparse timbre I want is in it somewhere, I just need to work out how to get at it!

It is incredibly light weight, seems well made, and has bags of volume. I just hope that I can roll off that darn presence knob. I have two weeks to send it back if the new bridge does not calm it down.
In order:
  1. All the right moves - the OEM 12-53 PB strings are OK for Gypsy jazz but not much else, and I'd give those pure nickel strings about a week of hard playing to break in and lose their edge;
  2. One of the characteristics of a good archtop is their lightning-quick response, where the notes just seem to explode out of the body - but they're also designed to develop their tone out in front of the body rather than from within like a flattop, and are often perceived differently by the player and the audience (you might want to ask a knowledgeable friend to play it while you stand across the room - I strongly suspect you'll have a very different impression);
  3. While the Tusq bridge gives the electric versions some welcome added clarity, a wooden bridge (preferably rosewood IME) is unquestionably the way to go with the acoustic;
  4. Getting the most from any archtop definitely requires a paradigm shift, one that the old-time Big Band players called "coaxing the velvet out" and which has been discussed here on the Archtop subforum in the past - IME you might want to carefully observe a virtuoso orchestral-string soloist, see how he/she uses right/left-hand technique (and try to feel how the instrument responds to his/her touch on the strings), and adapt what you've learned to your own approach;
  5. Everything I said it was, and more - even if it's not your ultimate vision of what an archtop should be IMO it's well worth keeping in your tone arsenal for its own merits, and frankly I'm surprised that Godin didn't sell more of them on that basis alone...
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  #30  
Old 02-18-2022, 01:12 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Originally Posted by Dadzmad View Post
Robin W - if you are looking for a more fundamental (straight up) sound you may want to try some flat wound strings - I've used Rotosound Monel Top Tapes on my Kingpin, less expensive than some of the top of the line jazz sets but good enough for a retro/roots sound. Enjoy your Godin 5th Ave - these sound great paired with another player on a flat top.
Thanks! I have thought about flatwounds but sort of at this very early point I think that a bridge change will have more impact on the brash presence.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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