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  #1  
Old 11-12-2021, 11:10 AM
Regalord Regalord is offline
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Default Have we been doing it wrong w 70s Gibsons?

Several years ago I bought a 72 J-50 that sounded good in the shop and was well under a grand. Score on a vintage guitar, I thought. When I changed the strings when I got her home she sounded, well dead. I tried tons of different types of strings but she was still dead sounding.

Here's the thing--recently I went up to medium strings (13s) and adjusted the truss rod counter clockwise til the top started to get more lively with vibrations. And then I tuned down a half step to account for the added tension of the strings. It now sounds incredible! In fact I played a new j-45 recently which my wife said sounded like it was stuffed with sweaters compared to my j-50.

I am prepared to say I could have one of "the good ones" (it is on the light side) but I am wondering if the heavier bracing just needed a) years longer to break in and b) medium gauge strings to come to life.

If my theory is correct, there are a lot of amazing guitars with old hog and broken in spruce tops just waiting for us to revive with a truss rod adjustment and some heavier strings.

Have we been doing it wrong with these guitars?
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2021, 11:42 AM
zombywoof zombywoof is offline
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I recall looking at new Gibsons during the 1970s. I walked out empty handed preferring to stick with the older Gibson I had bought used. While all the added mass of the bracing was great for avoiding warranty issues but not the best recipe for sound, I have come to think that the true culprit was the oversized bridge plates. About the only 1970s Gibson I would consider bringing home these days would be a Gospel. The stiff laminate arched back made all the difference in the world.
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Last edited by zombywoof; 11-12-2021 at 12:40 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-12-2021, 12:06 PM
lowrider lowrider is offline
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Glad to see that you got your guitar sounding the way you like it, but;

'adjusted the truss rod counter clockwise til the top started to get more lively''

Is this something you normally do? Were you turning the TR to make the strings higher of the top?
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Old 11-12-2021, 12:12 PM
Sugar Bear Sugar Bear is offline
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Well, that's one approach.

Of course, you could go after it with sharp instruments and abrasives and make it the way it should have been in the first place.

However, when I suggest things like that the reaction of other guitarists is often akin to what one might expect if you were to suggest remodeling a newborn infant with a Sawz-All.

I think people are sensitive to ideas like taking the angle grinder and sledge hammer to their acoustic guitars. Not so much in electric forums.

But if you'd like to stick with the non-intrusive approach, it sounds like you've found a successful path.
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Old 11-12-2021, 12:14 PM
generalliamsayn generalliamsayn is offline
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When an acquaintance found out I like "old Gibsons" he wanted to sell me his 70's Gibson Heritage (a short lived model).

It was quite a heavy beast, and, IMHO, quite lifeless, tonally.

I politely declined.
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Old 11-12-2021, 01:43 PM
Regalord Regalord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear View Post
Well, that's one approach.

Of course, you could go after it with sharp instruments and abrasives and make it the way it should have been in the first place.

However, when I suggest things like that the reaction of other guitarists is often akin to what one might expect if you were to suggest remodeling a newborn infant with a Sawz-All.

I think people are sensitive to ideas like taking the angle grinder and sledge hammer to their acoustic guitars. Not so much in electric forums.

But if you'd like to stick with the non-intrusive approach, it sounds like you've found a successful path.
I would hardly call a truss rod adjustment and heavy strings that invasive. But of course it is extremely possible that someone DID do something invasive to before it came my way.

Sure, Pre-war gibsons and martins sound better most of the time, but they don't come cheap. A lot of newer guitars might sound like great old ones in 30 years. But my point is more that I may have found a way to get a great vintage sounding guitar that doesn't break the bank. My point is definitely not that you shouldn't buy an expensive 40s J-45 if you have the cash and desire to have one.
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Old 11-12-2021, 01:46 PM
Regalord Regalord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowrider View Post
Glad to see that you got your guitar sounding the way you like it, but;

'adjusted the truss rod counter clockwise til the top started to get more lively''

Is this something you normally do? Were you turning the TR to make the strings higher of the top?
First time messing with a TR on an acoustic. Overall it lowered the action and made it easier to play. Also just made it sound more like what you'd expect an old Gibson to sound like.
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Old 11-12-2021, 01:51 PM
Regalord Regalord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombywoof View Post
I recall looking at new Gibsons during the 1970s. I walked out empty handed preferring to stick with the older Gibson I had bought used. While all the added mass of the bracing was great for avoiding warranty issues but not the best recipe for sound, I have come to think that the true culprit was the oversized bridge plates. About the only 1970s Gibson I would consider bringing home these days would be a Gospel. The stiff laminate arched back made all the difference in the world.
My guitar does not appear to have a large bridge plate at all. Probably either got replaced at some point or got a good one out of the gate. I'll never know. But you're right, this could be a big factor.
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Old 11-12-2021, 04:24 PM
Sugar Bear Sugar Bear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regalord View Post
I would hardly call a truss rod adjustment and heavy strings that invasive. But of course it is extremely possible that someone DID do something invasive to before it came my way.

Sure, Pre-war gibsons and martins sound better most of the time, but they don't come cheap. A lot of newer guitars might sound like great old ones in 30 years. But my point is more that I may have found a way to get a great vintage sounding guitar that doesn't break the bank. My point is definitely not that you shouldn't buy an expensive 40s J-45 if you have the cash and desire to have one.
Read this again, paying close attention to the highlighted parts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear View Post
But if you'd like to stick with the non-intrusive approach, it sounds like you've found a successful path.
My point was, if you wanted to go further than your non-invasive solution, you could pop the top and correct the issues that Gibson tended to overbuild on back in the 1970s.
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2021, 06:34 PM
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Mark Stone Mark Stone is offline
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I owned and gigged a 70s era Gibson J-50, and used it from around 1972 until I traded it straight-across for my current Kazuo Yairi in 1978. I have nothing but good memories. Only thing is I don't remember and didn't care about its "tone" - it was a guitar, and it was fun to play. Being part of the AGF and learning about the Norlin years taught me that it probably was a dawg - but it sure was fun to play way back then. I kind of wish I could get back to the place where a guitar is a guitar . . . . .
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  #11  
Old 11-12-2021, 07:46 PM
standup standup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regalord View Post
Several years ago I bought a 72 J-50 that sounded good in the shop and was well under a grand. Score on a vintage guitar, I thought. When I changed the strings when I got her home she sounded, well dead. I tried tons of different types of strings but she was still dead sounding.

Here's the thing--recently I went up to medium strings (13s) and adjusted the truss rod counter clockwise til the top started to get more lively with vibrations.
I have a 1970 J-50, and it’s a pretty lively and enjoyable guitar. For the last year or two I’ve strung it with 13’s, though at the moment it has 12 phosphor bronzes. It’s still the same guitar with 12’s or 13’s, I think.

My plan is to move to low-tension 13’s and see how I like it.

It’s a good guitar. I’ve played “dead” Gibsons, this is not one.
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Old 11-12-2021, 09:14 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Tightening the trussrod, which tends to straighten out the neck and lower string height as a result, can definitely help improve the responsiveness of a guitar.

I had this experience with my luthier-built Gerald Sheppard GA, Ave Maria. This is a very expensive, hand-built guitar that is very touch sensitive. However, in the past I had trouble with some fret buzzing and found myself messing around with the trussrod. As I loosened the trussrod the responsiveness just drained right out of this guitar. Even my wife commented how suddenly awful the guitar sounded. She was really worried that I had ruined the guitar.

But slowly I tightened the trussrod back up until I got the responsiveness back but not so much that I got the fret buzz, and voila. Everything was good again.

But it taught me a lesson. A stiff neck can make quite a difference. And that's what tightening the trussrod does. It makes the neck a little stiffer.

I can also see how the use of medium gauge strings can make a Gibson sound better, mostly because most Gibsons are so heavily braced. They may well need more energy to drive the top. I don't use medium gauge strings on my 2002 Gibson Advanced Jumbo Luthier's Choice, however. I did, once, as an experiment, but my arthritic fingers can't handle the extra force needed to push them down. I use light gauge (12s) on my AJ and in fact on all my guitars.

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bracing, gibson, j-50, norlin, vintage acoustic

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