Yet another Taylor ES vs. ??? thread!

Taylor Guy · #1 07-26-2013, 11:04 AM

Hey gang!

I know that this topic has been beaten to death, but I was wanting some recommendations on what pickup system would best compliment my Taylor W14-ce from 2006. It has a played in walnut back and sides, with an engelmann top. It is one of the sweetest, most balanced guitars I have ever played with silky lows and shimmering highs, but I just haven't been able to get that to translate through the ES system. Being an '06, it still has the original AA ES in it.

Yes, I have tried the K4. It helps, but still I just feel that there is something better out there. It would cost me almost 1k to get the latest ES by the time I ship and ensure both ways, plus a couple of months of being without my main platform guitar. I play in church every week through a very nice system, and play a lot of conferences and things.

Please understand that I still want it to still sound somewhat like a Taylor...not a Martin, or a Larrivee (I have one of those that I love for that darker tone), but with a more of a robust tone whereas the ES sounds a bit thin to me, even with heavy help from the K4 which then sounds a bit forced if that makes any sense.

Maybe the ES update would be the best thing, but I just cant help but think that for 1k I could get an incredible rig set up.

Also, I am not looking for a philosophical discussion about the ramifications of the taxonomical structure that indicates Martins to be superior to Taylors or whatever. Just some pickup recommendations and even some front end gear recommendations would be nice

My wife gave me the guitar as a present, which makes it priceless!

As an aside, I love Josh Wilson's sound (recognizing that he plays a Koa 314 through a lot of front end processing) found here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLg4KmX2X70

Thanks in advance!! Love this forum!

Side Man · #2 07-26-2013, 11:15 AM

Figured I'd beat everyone else to the punch and recommend this:

http://mi-si.com/products/

Mi-Si's Align XT... which should retrofit into your guitar without much hassle or $$$.

You're welcome.

cbriggs · #3 07-26-2013, 11:21 AM

I've been thinking of putting this in my 814. I haven't heard any reviews yet.

Doubleneck · #4 07-26-2013, 03:32 PM

If holes are drilled in your guitar don't see how you can't look at the above. Steve

Taylor Guy · #5 07-26-2013, 06:54 PM

Side man- Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I have seen that system before, but like the other user stated, I have yet to see a great deal of reviews on it. The aesthetic would certainly be appealing, but if the pickup itself isn't stellar then I'll pass. I am willing to go with something minimally invasive, like the matrix or pure mini, just not willing to cut new holes in case I ever go back to ES.

Have you had any personal experience with this system? Would love for someone to give me their subjective experience with it.

Side Man · #6 07-27-2013, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor Guy

Side man- Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I have seen that system before, but like the other user stated, I have yet to see a great deal of reviews on it. The aesthetic would certainly be appealing, but if the pickup itself isn't stellar then I'll pass. I am willing to go with something minimally invasive, like the matrix or pure mini, just not willing to cut new holes in case I ever go back to ES.

Have you had any personal experience with this system? Would love for someone to give me their subjective experience with it.

Yes - I have had personal experience. It is IMHO light years ahead of the problematic, non-acoustic sound of the earlier and mid-generation ES versions. Hopefully somebody who isn't too busy enjoying their own Align XT will chime in here.

But like I said, it's my humble opinion and I'm sticking to it.

pitner · #7 07-27-2013, 05:36 AM

My Taylor 12 string has the ES and I like it. No one in a loud church setting will hear the difference if you change IMHO unless you are doing solo stuff it might be chasing smoke. I play in a church band using many different instruments and am very picky about my sound also. In my Olson SJ I had the UST pulled and a K and K mini installed with very good results to my ear. I run through a Bagg Para Di to the board with no effects. My 12 is a few years old so it is 1 generation back from current production. For less than $150 the K and K will do the job and comes with great reviews.

Joseph Hanna · #8 07-27-2013, 05:53 AM

The problem with using the Josh Wilson example as the type of sound you like (even with the caveat that's it's a Koa 314) is that clip is as far removed from the sound of any acoustic guitar as can be. There is certainly nothing representing the sound of Koa in the clip. It's as dry, pick-uppy and hyped as it gets. Listen to the low E string he hits (0:51) as an example of just how electric and exaggerated it is. Now whether or not, in and of itself, it's a great sounding live rig is up to the beholder. It certainly appears to work for him.

Asking for suggestions on a system that'll properly represent your Walnut Taylor and then using the Josh Wilson clip as an example makes it a difficult task

royd · #9 07-27-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor Guy

As an aside, I love Josh Wilson's sound (recognizing that he plays a Koa 314 through a lot of front end processing) found here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLg4KmX2X70

sounds to me like a stereotypical UST... probably the fishman OEM rig.

FWIW, I believe that MiSi uses the Baggs element as their UST so if you like the Baggs, you'd probably like the MiSi as well.

Taylor Guy · #10 07-28-2013, 01:25 PM

Pitner- Agree completely, but if we are all honest, 99% of what we do gear wise is really for us and to placate our ear, is it not? Maybe the folks at your church are a lot more gear savvy that at mine, but unless I showed up one morning with a bright red guitar or something, I could likely play my $250 Yamaha and most would not notice.

Joseph- Duly noted...it sounded much better live. Lets err on the "fit for my Walnut Taylor" side and disregard the clip, then.

Still looking for suggestions, although what has been mentioned here already is interesting. I had a fishman infinity matrix ust installed on an older Yamaha I had and was pleased with the results (on that guitar). Sounded a little quacky, though. I can't help but think there is something better out there.

Here's a question- Has anyone on here actually done Taylor's refresh program, upgrading from 1st gen to latest ES, and been blown away with the results??

Joseph Hanna · #11 07-28-2013, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor Guy

Joseph- Duly noted...it sounded much better live. Lets err on the "fit for my Walnut Taylor" side and disregard the clip, then.

Naw I'm sure it sounded wonderful live Taylor Guy, I have no doubt! It brings us to an interesting crossroads here though. It's been discussed a fair amount recently but here's an encapsulation of what I mean:

The more we get systems out there which are indeed getting better and better at reproducing the actual sound of an acoustic guitar live, the more we see folks that realize maybe that's not "exactly" what they're looking for in the first place. The old adage "be careful what you wish for may apply here". On the other side of the coin we've grown accustom to systems that hype the low-end and effortlessly fight feedback, and are loud and provide the sonic sting that might be needed in a live scenario to cut. Along comes various systems that get close to an acoustic guitar at it's fundamental core sound and people begin to complain that "it's feedback prone", it's lacking that huge low end I like, it doesn't cut ect, ect. An acoustic guitar sound live is a very, very difficult thing and it's really difficult in a live mix. They're low output, full ranged and resonant. Indeed by their very nature they don't play nice live.....for that matter they don't play nice in the studio either! Some artificial help from a pickup system is not always a bad thing. Hedges took full advantage of pickup systems that allowed him to apply effects (mostly reverb and chorus) and still be thunderous in the P.A. That's simply not gonna happen with a mic-like solution. On the other hand it's not gonna let the sound of walnut come through the P.A.

All of that said when someone comes here and is looking to replicate the "sound of my walnut Taylor" I gotta ask if that's really what you mean. If it is I can guarantee you it'll come with some very tangible compromises!

pieterh · #12 07-28-2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor Guy

Pitner- Agree completely, but if we are all honest, 99% of what we do gear wise is really for us and to placate our ear, is it not? Maybe the folks at your church are a lot more gear savvy that at mine, but unless I showed up one morning with a bright red guitar or something, I could likely play my $250 Yamaha and most would not notice.

Joseph- Duly noted...it sounded much better live. Lets err on the "fit for my Walnut Taylor" side and disregard the clip, then.

Still looking for suggestions, although what has been mentioned here already is interesting. I had a fishman infinity matrix ust installed on an older Yamaha I had and was pleased with the results (on that guitar). Sounded a little quacky, though. I can't help but think there is something better out there.

Here's a question- Has anyone on here actually done Taylor's refresh program, upgrading from 1st gen to latest ES, and been blown away with the results??

I've gone the whole way and upgraded from ES-1 (AA batteries) to ES-3 (latest version). Blown away? Not so much. A clear improvement? Definitely. I was mixing a group last week where the guitarist had a 314ce made in 2011 (ES-3) and it sounded excellent, leading me to wonder if my upgrade included a new neck pickup or if they just tampered with the old.

My reservations with the latest ES are the same as before - the B string stands out somewhat and has a less than ideal tone when playing above the fifth fret. This is on the other hand much less noticeable than before, and last time I played live (just over a week ago) it sounded great on stage.

sixstrings87 · #13 07-28-2013, 05:39 PM

I felt like you used to about the ES, as well. I started a thread similar to this about two months ago.

I almost sold my guitar I hated it so bad, and I have the third generation ES.

Then, in listening to countless samples of other pickups, I wasn't really satisfied that any truly captures that incredible sound of a guitar. Maybe some do it better than others, but there are trade-offs with every one of them. I decided not to mess around with changing my electronics, leave my guitar alone, embrace the ES, and focus on playing the best I possibly can. I may add pedals in the future, and if Taylor comes out with something different, maybe I will change, but I just quit worrying with it, and I have enjoyed playing at church so much more ever since.

A side note: I got two very nice compliments just this morning on how good my guitar tone was..not my playing, per se, but how the guitar was EQed and mixed with the band. I think some here have already nailed it in saying that we care much more (and have a much more nuanced ear) than those listening or, in our case, singing along.

Just my two cents.

Taylor Guy · #14 07-28-2013, 07:18 PM

Some great insights here!

Joseph- Very well said! I guess what I do want is something that comes close to the sonic properties of the guitar for solo work and unplugged sets, with the knowledge that when I am playing with a large band I can always cut some mids and slice through the mix with some front end gear or via the board. Would love to hear your recommendations!

Sixstring87- Great observation! Sometimes one just gets GRS (Gear restlessness syndrome) and you want to hear something a little bit different coming through the feed, you know? Glad to hear I am not the only one that has been there, though! The other bummer with the AA system is the short battery system and no battery indicator

This had bitten me more than once.

Thanks for all the great thought! Keep 'em coming!

PorkPieGuy · #15 07-29-2013, 08:54 AM

I have a Walden Madera (all mahogany, GA-shape) with the Mi-Si's Align XT system. I think that it sounds good, but I've not had a lot of experiece with it plugged in through the big PA yet. I have plugged it in through an amp, and it seems to sound pretty good. The knobs are ugly as sin though:

(Stock photo)

If I was looking for the most natural sounding acoustic pickup, I'd look to a K&K mini. I have one in my Taylor GC8, and IMO it sounds just like the guitar - just louder. I know that you have to opt for either leaving the "dead" knobs on the guitar or somehow filling the 3 little holes.