Acoustic amp vs powered speaker ?

Kqpout · #1 09-19-2019, 02:34 PM

Hi,
I play a lot of folk music on different electro-acoustic instruments with piezzos (guitars, bouzouki...) and I'm thinking about buying someday a small clip-on microphone for acoustic instruments (mandolin, oud, medieval fiddle...).
Actually I use a little Phil Jones bass head and cab i had, but I want something more adequate.

So I hesitate between a powered speaker (Yamaha DXR10) and an acoustic amplifier (Fishman Loudbox mini). My priorities are sound (clear and flat, some reverb would be nice), convenience and sturdiness.

I would use it mainly for acoustic situation, playing with louder instruments (hurdy-gurdy, accordions...) and maybe some gigs in small pubs and such.

A powered speaker might be more evolutive (I can add a mixer, another speaker...) and I do have pedals for notch, eq and reverb, but it is a more complicated set-up. Yet won't it sound flatter and better, with very different instruments ?

I also consider the Fishman SA330X, but is it as good and reliable as the Loudbox ?

What do you think / what would you chose?
Thanks

guitarman68 · #2 09-19-2019, 03:20 PM

I would go for Elite Acoustic D6-8 amp and a DPA 4061 clip on. It simply does not get any better than with a DPA 4061 - after 30 years gigging with anything with strings and recording in a high end gear studio using the best mics available. The 4061 is the only clip on mic I know that is able to bring the true sound of your instrument in stage without compromise. Many will das "Uh, stay away from omnis!" But I tried tons of clip on mics, and the DPA 4061 is not closer to feedback than a DPA 4099, AT 350, Countryman Isomax, AMT ... to name a few well loved clip ons.
Best active speaker I tried and still use is a QSC K8.2: wonderful detailed, true, flat response, ... and so less prone to feedback then regular acoustic amps which never sound linear to my ear. But it does not supply phantom power for a clip on mic like the Elite Acoustic does.
Elite Acoustic D6-8 has a fully equipped digital mixer built in , with elaborate EQ, reverb, output options ...

Stringmaster · #3 09-19-2019, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitarman68

I would go for Elite Acoustic D6-8 amp and a DPA 4061 clip on. It simply does not get any better than with a DPA 4061 - after 30 years gigging with anything with strings and recording in a high end gear studio using the best mics available. The 4061 is the only clip on mic I know that is able to bring the true sound of your instrument in stage without compromise. Many will das "Uh, stay away from omnis!" But I tried tons of clip on mics, and the DPA 4061 is not closer to feedback than a DPA 4099, AT 350, Countryman Isomax, AMT ... to name a few well loved clip ons.
Best active speaker I tried and still use is a QSC K8.2: wonderful detailed, true, flat response, ... and so less prone to feedback then regular acoustic amps which never sound linear to my ear. But it does not supply phantom power for a clip on mic like the Elite Acoustic does.
Elite Acoustic D6-8 has a fully equipped digital mixer built in , with elaborate EQ, reverb, output options ...

How do you mount the DPA? Got pics?

Kqpout · #4 09-20-2019, 05:31 AM

Thank you guitarman68,

The D6-8 is indeed interesting. I do not need the battery but it can always be useful one day. The memory feature is nice.
It seems like it is a small mixer and an acoustic amp in one box, so more plug&play, which I like, but would not a DXR10 and a small mixer sound better and louder ? Also less expensive.
QSC K series are really interesting but a bit expensive for me right now.

As is the DPA, so maybe later. I was considering an AKG C411 first as a compromise between piezzo and condenser.

If I might ask, what is your actual set-up for your acoustic instruments?

guitarman68 · #5 09-20-2019, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringmaster

How do you mount the DPA? Got pics?

I do not know how to upload pics (actually just made a few for uploading). Maybe someone can help.

There are many mic holders offered by DPA for mounting the 4061. I use a tiny clamp on the F-hole of my mandolin, a rubber clamp mounted with double adhesive near the F-hole hole of my mandola and octave mandolin, same clamp on the banjo head. Same clamp in the inside of the soundhole (between g and d-string pointing at the neckblock) of several guitars, weissenborn slide, bouzouki. And there is even a magnetic clamp on my 1937 National. All clamps/ holders by DPA.

guitarman68 · #6 09-20-2019, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kqpout

Thank you guitarman68,

The D6-8 is indeed interesting. I do not need the battery but it can always be useful one day. The memory feature is nice.
It seems like it is a small mixer and an acoustic amp in one box, so more plug&play, which I like, but would not a DXR10 and a small mixer sound better and louder ? Also less expensive.
QSC K series are really interesting but a bit expensive for me right now.

As is the DPA, so maybe later. I was considering an AKG C411 first as a compromise between piezzo and condenser.

If I might ask, what is your actual set-up for your acoustic instruments?

DXR10 and a small mixer is a great idea, no question.
The D6-8 has another great option I forgot to mention: In the line inputs you can switch between line mode and instrument mode. Instrument mode means high Z, so when using passive pickups like I do, there is no need for additional preamps. Plug in and play - I tried it with various pickups and it works fine. And I'm very picky about acoustic sound.

My actual setting varies a lot, depending on the band and size of gig. Most of the time I use a Touchmix 16 Mixer for mixing the whole band on stage and a QSC K8.2 for monitoring / controlling the FOH sound from on stage. FOH speakers are QSC12.2 or Bose L1 - depending on the size of the venue.
Whenever possible I use only one Neumann KM85 (same as KM84 but with a bass roll off) in front of my instruments (guitar, mandolin, bouzouki, octave mandolin, dobro, banjo, Weissenborn - it depends). EQ flat. On vocals AKG C535
When pickups are needed, I plug into a Grace Felix and blend pickup and internal mic (all my instruments are dual source equipped): guitar, mandolin, bouzouki. Additional instruments are plugged in to a ToneDexter, sometimes Fishman Platinum or RedEye.
When playing bigger stages/ festivals I always bring my QSC K8.2 and use it as my personal monitor. The line out of the Grace Felix and Tone Dexter go to the two inputs of the K8.2.
When gigging solo/duo I only bring the D6-8.
Right now I'm thinking about using the D6-8 as personal monitor on bigger stages: Beside my Instruments I can plug in my vocal mic and because of the various output options the D6-8 offers I can send two or even more seperate lines to the FOH: One for vocals, one for all the instruments - consistent monitor sound on any stage, what a nice vision.

Kqpout · #7 09-21-2019, 03:34 AM

Thanks for your help.

Right now I'm leaning toward buying a K8.2 and a Berhinger XR12 for evolutivity. The XR12 will be nice for effects (reverb, eq...) and memory function.

I just still hesitates with the DXR10 since it's quite cheaper (220€ less).
The QSC is smaller, lighter, comes with a bag and probably sounds a little better for acoustic, but 220€ is the price of the XR12.

Edit : I finally ordered a DXR10 on discount. Will add later a mixer and experiment with the microphones I already have (AT4041) for now.

guitarman68 · #8 09-21-2019, 06:22 PM

Hey, congrats- great choice ! And AT4041 is a mighty fine mic !
Have fun with your new rig !

Kqpout · #9 09-25-2019, 05:58 AM

Thank you

Received the Yamaha speaker, sound great with most of my instruments, with a little preamp and some light reverb.
However my oud sounds like crap, but I think it's the K&K piezzo's fault (single one, maybe poorly positioned, the mediums are awful). It's slightly better with a 10 band eq but still quite bad.

The DPA 4061 you mentioned is an omni, so I see why it can sound more natural than the 4099 (supercardioid), but I'm surprised you don't get more feedback.

The oud is a difficult instrument for live music, but i remember seeing a picture with a microphone that looked like a 4060 or 4061 attached directly on the soundboard. Can't find it yet. Like this:

And this is Marcel Khalifé's oud (2 AKG C411, AT831, ATM350. Poor oud):

ceciltguitar · #10 09-25-2019, 12:23 PM

YMMV: We each have different ears, different brains, different opinions.

My wife and I gigged extensively for 10 years using the Fishman SA 220. I have also used numerous "Acoustic Amps" over the years. I like the AER Compact 60/3. My wife does NOT like the AER Compact 60/3 for vocals, and I have seen AGF posts both in favor of and not liking the AER Compact 60/3 for vocals.

I have NOT used the Loudbox.

This time around, I'm planning to try Soundcraft 12 channel mixer and QSC CP8 powered speaker(s).

lkingston · #11 09-25-2019, 12:40 PM

If I was buying something now it would be the new Elite Acoustics D6-58. I have the D6-8 and it sounds absolutely wonderful but is underpowered. This one fixes that one and only flaw:

http://www.eliteacoustics.com/portfo...amplifier-2-2/

Kqpout · #12 09-27-2019, 11:48 AM

Ordered a XR12 mixer and a used Audio-Technica PRO 35, I should be equipped now

I hope it will sound good.

lkingston · #13 09-27-2019, 12:44 PM

I suggest you also get an Apple Airport Express WiFi router as the router in the XR Series mixers is terrible. That is unless you are happy with a static setup during a gig.

Chipotle · #14 09-27-2019, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kqpout

Ordered a XR12 mixer and a used Audio-Technica PRO 35, I should be equipped now

I hope it will sound good.

I just got an XR18, and have also heard you should get an external router. Lots of horrorshow stories about connectivity trying to use the built-in WiFi; pretty bulletproof with a decent dual-band router. You don't necessarily need Apple, any inexpensive dual-band router will be far superior to the built-in WiFi, and the 5GHz band will have a lot less competition than 2.4GHz.

Kqpout · #15 10-12-2019, 04:30 AM

I received my used PRO35 and C411.

The pro35 sounds great, but positioning is very important, and the clip doesn't go on all my instruments. Or it does, but the mic gets in the way while playing (on my bouzouki). I'm looking for other clamp systems, maybe going DIY with a woodworking clamp (hell yeah).
Really good on the oud, nice on fiddle too.

I was really surprised by the C411. I expected a somewhat improved piezzo sound, but with a light reverb it can be quite realistic too. A great cheap and convenient option