Improvements to Mid/Side tracks - '56 Martin 00-18 + Neumann TLM102 + AKG C414 XLS

[howthewestwas1]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

That sounds very nice, balance-wise. That sounds like the placement that I was trying to describe, and what usually works for me. You might experiment with different heights and distances from the guitar. A few inches can make a big difference, for better or worse.

Did you EQ this? It's got a lot of high end, around 10K, but seems a little lacking in presence and punch somehow, and comes off as a tad muddy at the same time.

Every mic placement has its pros and cons, some work better with different guitars, and so on. My overall preference, given two mics, is for spaced pairs, but MS has it's benefits. I actually usually do both - spaced pairs with an MS pair in the middle, and then I can mix to taste, sometimes one, sometimes the other, often both, with the mix tending one way or the other.

I actually just took down that track and updated the orifinals as detailed in the post above. I think there might have been a mix up in the track titles and you may have actually heardo original track that I tweaked

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by howthewestwas1

I actually just took down that track and updated the orifinals as detailed in the post above. I think there might have been a mix up in the track titles and you may have actually heardo original track that I tweaked

Ah, I grabbed the latest of furrowed brow, and the high boost isn't as big now. You're still pulled a bit to the right balance-wise, and the sound is pretty narrow now. But improving!

[alohachris]

Aloha Howthewestwas1,

Your dialogue with Doug has resulted in positive sonic results. The revised recordings are better, though I agree with Doug's assessment on shortcomings - keep playing with it & re-record using different mic placements. Your balance is getting much better. Perhaps you should ask Doug exactly where he currently likes to place his mic's in M-S.

One of Doug's M-S mic placements that really worked for me in learning M-S was to place the mic's 10"-12" out from the sound hole, but pointing slightly ABOVE the plane of the top side of the guitar - not at the sound hole. That really seems to eliminate some of the M-S balance issues, proximity effect, muddiness IMO, & provides a very nice direct acoustic stereo sound. Of course, experiment.

Here's Doug using that placement on his beautiful song, "Missing You:" The mic's are Schoeps CMC6 Collette Series: MK41 hypercardioid capsule & MK 8 ribbon capsule both in a low-profile Audio Technica 8415 shockmount, in EADEAE tuning, FYI .

https://youtu.be/m0Bbgucd7K4

Interesting thread. Nice music. Best of luck.

alohachris

PS: More consistency, clarity & separation - & less noise - can be achieved in your recordings by using just a few broadband absorbers in DIY Room Treatment around your tracking area, like this:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

Ya gotta get those early room reflections identified & controlled.

PPS: I like how you by-passed the mediocre onboard mic pre's of the Scarlett interface with the 610's. Good call.

[Doug Young]

I think we're all talking about the same placement. For me, it varies (slightly) with the mics. For example, I often use R88's, which are huge, and so that has an impact. But generally, I'm aiming for the mid mic to be at or slightly above the smallest part of the waist of the guitar, maybe a foot out. Then the side mic can be below that. With something like the Schoeps in the video Chris pointed to, the mic are very small, so they're both right about at the waist. With LD mics, you can't get them as close together, but that's fine. I usually find I get more bass if I go lower, less if I raise the mic a bit. An inch can make a difference, so I can dial in how much low end I want. It also depends on the guitar, and the exact position for left/right balance varies with guitars, but usually right in the smallest part of the waist works. Sometimes I lift the mics substantially above the guitar - like near my head - and aim down. I think I mentioned, I monitor after a decoder, so I can see the stereo image, and can tweak the mic positions as needed. A slight shift left/right - or a slight turn of the side mic usually dials in the balance. I have a monitor set where I can see it as I play, so the first thing I do before starting to play is check that balance, and either move mics or squirm in my chair until it's right.

Room acoustics also play a big role, and I also hear a fair bit of noise on these recordings, so that's something else to work on at some point.

[howthewestwas1]

9/11/16 UPDATE
After getting lots of great advice from you fellow AGF'ers I took another stab at my Mid/Side techniques to correct for unbalanced stereo imaging. Changes since last time:

1. Combined both mics onto a single mic stand, positioned 14 inches from guitar, slightly off axis at center of guitar
2. Balanced both mics for equal gain in cardioid mode prior to M/S setup
3. Re-positioned the mics - TLM102 (mid) ontop near center of the guitar, at level of guitar's waist angled slightly down + AKG on the bottom.
4. Swapped out the C314 for a C414 XLS (and engaged the 80 hz HPF)
5. Still using dual Universal Audio Solo 610's for each mid

Here is the final product. I did apply a suble high pass filter to the Neumann to tame some boominess. I think it turned out great! What do you guys think?

"The Furrowed Brow"


"Mint"


The inspiration (see below the 18i8)


The new mic setup

[Doug Young]

Im traveling and can only listen with earbuds, but it sounds good to me!

[howthewestwas1]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Im traveling and can only listen with earbuds, but it sounds good to me!

Thanks! I really appreciated all your help in this thread.

[rick-slo]

Very pleasant, focused and clean sound, and that is what you want from mid-side and other coincident mic'ing. Plus it is fairly consistently reproducible from recording to recording, at least while in the same recording space.

On the other hand M-S is not as full a sound as possible with some other mike setups, and attempting to add reverb is less successful than with some other mike setups due a phasey sound introduced to the narrow M-S sound stage.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Very pleasant, focused and clean sound, and that is what you want from mid-side and other coincident mic'ing. Plus it is fairly consistently reproducible from recording to recording, at least while in the same recording space.

On the other hand M-S is not as full a sound as possible with some other mike setups, and attempting to add reverb is less successful than with some other mike setups due a phasey sound introduced to the narrow M-S sound stage.

Rick, as im sure you know, MS is mathematically identical to XY. Are you suggesting that its hard to successfullly add reverb to an XY recording? Cant say Id agree with that. you can even add reverb to a mono recording to very good effect.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Rick, as im sure you know, MS is mathematically identical to XY. Are you suggesting that its hard to successfullly add reverb to an XY recording? Cant say Id agree with that. you can even add reverb to a mono recording to very good effect.

You can add reverb, but I think it does not sound that great, at least compared to a non-coincident mike recording. However it is subjective I suppose, and you know from my comments in prior threads how much I dislike mono recording of solo guitar. Also if you do add reverb it should be a mono reverb in order to maintain one of the advantages of MS. I will pass for now responding to the "mathematically identical" comment.
If you have a narrow focused MS recording (or mono recording if you wish) with an effective reverb I would be interested in hearing it raw and then with reverb, and some details about it.

[howthewestwas1]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Very pleasant, focused and clean sound, and that is what you want from mid-side and other coincident mic'ing. Plus it is fairly consistently reproducible from recording to recording, at least while in the same recording space.

On the other hand M-S is not as full a sound as possible with some other mike setups, and attempting to add reverb is less successful than with some other mike setups due a phasey sound introduced to the narrow M-S sound stage.

Thanks! I am liking M-S so far. It can get a little tricky with the Neumann and the near sound hole positioning as there isn't a low frequency roll off with that mic and it can be prone to the proximity effect. But I just love the airy top-end of that mic. The second track ("mint") may need end up benefitting from a HPF afterall.

Dabbled a bit with space pair technique with the Neumann and AKG but ended up liking the M-S more on the first past.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

You can add reverb, but I think it does not sound that great, at least compared to a non-coincident mike recording. However it is subjective I suppose, and you know from my comments in prior threads how much I dislike mono recording of solo guitar. Also if you do add reverb it should be a mono reverb in order to maintain one of the advantages of MS. I will pass for now responding to the "mathematically identical" comment.
If you have a narrow focused MS recording (or mono recording if you wish) with an effective reverb I would be interested in hearing it raw and then with reverb, and some details about it.

Out of town at the moment, but I've done lots of MS recordings, never found adding reverb to be an issue. I'll try to experiment and post something one of these days. You can read about MS and its similarity to other micing techniques in Wes Dooley's original paper on MS. It does depend on how you mix the levels, but when mixed nominally, its the same as theoretical XY, if i recall correctly. Certainly adding stereo reverb introduces some mono incompatibilities, but its no different than what it does to any recording (the reverb may be affected if you sum to mono with spaced pairs, too). I dont care too much about mono, and you probably dont either.

[howthewestwas1]

Learning a lot, guys. Thanks for chiming in.

[howthewestwas1]

After some time away from the tracks I listened to them again in the car during my work commute and noticed levels are kind of low and still getting some boominess on the low end on some parts. Ended up messing with the EQ again and took a little more off starting around 50-80 hz on the Neumann (mid) mic for both tracks. I also applied very, very a subtle compressor to tame some peaks and get the overall levels a little higher. I think overall the tracks don't come off as dark now (especially when compared to the original takes where the Mid mic was off the soundhole and closer the 14th fret).

[alohachris]

Howzit? "Howthe"

Just wondering, what are you using for room treatment in your recording space?

alohachris