Is it the nut slot?

[Photojeep]

I have been playing since around 1969 and repeatedly over the years I've found, regardless of the guitar I'm playing, when I fret a G major cowboy chord the G on the low E string always goes sharp. Not horribly sharp but sharp nonetheless.

I must admit I've only known about "setups" for about the last 10-12 years so much of my early trouble was probably due to guitars that needed adjustment more than my Vulcan Death Grip - well, maybe it's 50/50 on that.

The thing I've noticed is this has happened on every single guitar I've ever played. Every single one. From guitars I've owned, to friend's guitars I've played, to guitar store models I've taken off the wall to play.

In my life I've probably owned around 20 different guitars and played well over 100 yet this same thing has occurred with every one. Since I'm the constant in this equation, I've worked hard over the years to not grip so hard with my fretting hand but it still happens.

I currently own 1 Gibson and 2 Martins and in spite of spot-on intonation, it happens with these 3 as well.

I read once in some owners manual that one should tune one's low E string slightly flat to ensure fretted notes ring true so that's what I've been doing but this overly-long preamble leads me to a couple questions:

1. Could it be possible that the nut on every guitar I've ever played need the low E string slot made lower?
2. Is this just how guitars are made?
3. Is this the reason for "sweetened" tunings?

Any thoughts?
PJ

[Realbluesman]

I'm sure those with physics knowledge will kick in here but I believe it is the nature of the beast. I wind up flattening my 2nd (b) string and the 6th (E) just a bit after I tune up.

I am guessing this might be a reason for the sweetened tunings. Intonation on a guitar is a somewhat moving target!

Originally Posted by Photojeep

1. Could it be possible that the nut on every guitar I've ever played need the low E string slot made lower?
2. Is this just how guitars are made?
3. Is this the reason for "sweetened" tunings?

A qualified "yes" to all of these.

1 & 2. Factory guitars could always use a set-up, and nut depth is very commonly one of the most critical things a good tech or luthier looks at. I can't say that the low E slot has been too shallow on every guitar you've ever played, but it's possible. And once all the slots are at the correct depth and the saddle is properly compensated for your string gauge, every string will sound more in tune.

3. Someone more articulate than me can tell you why a guitar is never really in tune all the way up the fretboard, and this is what sweetened tunings try to compensate for.

[JeffreyAK]

I don't notice this on any of my guitars. A few ideas come to mind, you might be pressing too hard on that string, you might be pressing too far back from the fret on that string, or you might be systematically tuning your guitars with the E a bit sharp? I think what people refer to as sweetened tuning is a compensation for small errors in equal temperament, but the error in a G note if the E is in tune is a bit flat, not sharp. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

[golfreggie]

Hey Photo, you are not alone. I have finally just "compensated" by using my ear to achieve the best results possible for fretted notes going sharp on the low E string. It doesn't take much, but it helps. If I am playing an E chord, the Gstring usually is a little sharp playing the Ab note, so I flatten that string lots of times also

[Kittoon]

The sharp G bothers me to the point I very often simply use dropped-D tuning. Now the G is played on the 5th fret and sounds much better.

[Noff]

It could be the nut slot. A pro set-up will get it close but not perfect. I suspect that your ears, like mine, are sensitive to pitch. You will likely also hear it on the B string when playing the open D chord. This is a problem inherent in all guitars. It will not produce exact notes across the fretboard and you're hearing where that it's most noticeable. I tune my low E string just a little flat to compensate. This makes an open E chord a little off but to me it's not as far off as the open G chord.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

I currently own 1 Gibson and 2 Martins and in spite of spot-on intonation...

Likely they are not "spot-on", contributing to the issue you experience.

1. Could it be possible that the nut on every guitar I've ever played need the low E string slot made lower?

It is possible. More likely, as you've already noted, your playing technique is a contributing factor.

2. Is this just how guitars are made?

Yes and no. Most are, most don't have to be. If, after a good setup, the issue still bothers you, compensation at both nut and saddle would "largely" alleviate the issue.

3. Is this the reason for "sweetened" tunings?

This gets back to the distinction between temperament and intonation. Temperament is related to what pitches you want to achieve. Intonation is related to how accurately or closely an instrument achieves those desired pitches.

On a guitar, good intonation - closely achieving the desired pitches - is accomplished by altering the vibrating string length of each string. This differs from the "scale length", which is the theoretical vibrating string length used to mathematically calculate the fret locations. The actual vibrating string length is defined by where the string breaks over the nut, at one end of the string, and the saddle, at the other end of the string.

Nearly all guitars have the saddle moved away from the nut so as to lengthen the actual vibrating string length. This makes the notes play flatter in pitch than they would if the saddle was at the theoretical position. This compensates for the tendency of a string to play progressively sharper the further up the fingerboard one frets the string. (It reduces the slope of the graphed line of the deviation between the desired pitch and the actual pitch produced.)

If one moves the nut closer to the first fret, that flattens each fretted note, with the greatest audible result in the first few frets. (It reduces the offset of the graphed line from zero deviation from actual and desired pitch.) Many guitars have the nut moved closer to the first fret by about .011", half the thickness of the saw kerf into which frets are installed. Many guitars have string heights at the nut that are too high, resulting in pitches produced at the first few frets being sharp. For most players, simply having the nut slots/zero fret at the minimum height provides notes that are "close enough" in pitch for most players. For those of whom it isn't close enough, both nut and saddle compensation will reduce the problem to an acceptable amount.

Even if the intonation of a guitar perfectly achieved the desired pitches - i.e. had perfect intonation - nearly all guitars are designed to achieve pitches belonging to equal temperament, not the Pythagorean or Just tuning that the ear wants to hear as "in tune". "Sweetening" a tuning, in the context of guitars, is the selective altering of the pitches of specific notes away from equal temperament towards the pitches of Pythagorean/Just tuning that the ear wants to hear.

If one uses "sweetening" to correct for inaccuracies/inconsistencies in intonation, rather than "corrections" of temperament, one will be forever chasing one's own tail tuning-wise. The starting point is accurate, consistent intonation across the instrument. Once that is achieved, one can alter individual notes to "sweeten" them for a specific key or group of chords.

[rick-slo]

Never had a problem with the sixth string going sharp. Second string and to a lesser extent the third string are the usual culprits, at least in standard tuning.
Also in standard tuning I want the first and sixth string to be precisely tuned to each other or there will be other discordant chord sounds.

[blindboyjimi]

Lots of good answers here. I swear by Peterson tuners specifically for the sweetened mode. But there are a few easy steps to check a few things. Capo at the 1st and then check at the 4th. That takes the nut out of the equation and is the easiest. The best way to check the nut is to fret the third fret and there should be the absolute slightest of light to shine under the 2nd fret. Fret the third and tap the string. You should hear a faint bright “ting” is should require almost no pressure to do so. That “ting” tells you the sting is not touching the 2nd fret, but slightly above it, if you need to tap too hard to get the “ting” then the nut slot is too high.

Am much more detailed way is I measure my first fret height (I use tall frets 47095) so they are about 0.045” after dressing. I file my nut slot parallel to the face plate and place feeler gauges stacked to 0.047” so my goal is fret height or a few thousandths above. Best of luck.

[Athens]

Ouch! maybe I should rephrase that title

I had a similar problem until I realized that on certain formations I wasn't coming straight down on some strings as much as I thought I was.

As a result I was doing a slight string bend and the string would go sharp, but only on certain formations and positions.

You might see if you're doing the same thing. Since it's on every guitar you play and only (apparently) that string, I'm afraid it's you, my friend.

[Wade Hampton]

Yes, there is a tendency for the low E string to go a little bit sharp when the open string is tuned to a concert pitch E. It has to do with tempered scales - the guitar is not perfectly in tune with itself, and actually can't be, for physics reasons I don't quite understand.

But flatting the E strings and B string slightly will result in the notes played on them being in better tune with the rest of the guitar.

How much fudging has to be done will depend on the individual guitar itself, as it varies somewhat from one guitar to another.

As noted, personal playing technique can also have an impact on this, but most of it is due to the compromises necessary to have a fully functioning chromatic stringed instrument.

Hope that makes SOME sort of sense...


Wade Hampton "You're Not The Only Person That This Puzzles" Miller

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

It is possible. More likely, as you've already noted, your playing technique is a contributing factor.

This was the case with me. I was experiencing the sharp G on the 6th string on multiple guitars, regardless of how will they were set up. I had to re-learn how to finger the G chord to deal with the problem. Experiment with putting your finger almost atop the fret, similar to how you'd set a Capo 3. For me, better placement and less pressure solved the problem.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Yes, there is a tendency for the low E string to go a little bit sharp when the open string is tuned to a concert pitch E. It has to do with tempered scales - the guitar is not perfectly in tune with itself, and actually can't be, for physics reasons I don't quite understand.

Nothing unique about the 6th string and the E note in tempered scales. Intonation issues can be in any particular string and note depending on the key one is in and the intervals being played.

[Mr. Jelly]

I have this issue where the E string played on the third fret sounds a little sharp. I'm pretty sure it's me. I tend to pull the string just a touch when I play it. It's because of the way I fret the guitar. So I tune it a touch to the flat side so it evens out when I play it. People that hold the guitar as a classical player or have big hands or long fingers more likely finger the string at a right angle and don't have this issue. At least not as much as someone like me that kind of fingers the string from an off angle.