When is a Martin not a Martin; Gibson not a Gibson etc

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, I'll make no comment about Mexican made Martins, or Far Eastern made Gibsons sold as Epiphones because I have no experience of either, but I recognise that both companies need to reach a newer, younger market by budget, but choose to do it in different ways.

Way back, Gibson made Two "levels" with the Kalamazoo brand, now almost as treasured as the similar Gibson branded items.

Whilst I find it a little sad that the honoured brand of Epiphone is now merely a bought in line of Gibson design copies, it seems to me that Gibson has retained their name brand wisely.

However, Martin have chosen to use their single brand name on their budget level items, and continue to make them all themselves. Whether they make them in the USA or Mexico matters little to me, as both are foreign countries to me.

As Yamaha, and now Eastman have proven, quality instruments are not limited to any particular nation.

I wonder whether, had the two world wars and the USSR not effectively destroyed the European musical instrument industry, especially in Germany and Czechoslovakia (as it was), and had Martin not destroyed Levin in Sweden, how different the situation might have been different.

[100LL]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Whether they make them in the USA or Mexico matters little to me, as both are foreign countries to me.

i think you’re kind of missing the point. it’s not about national pride, it’s a discussion about quality and standards and (maybe) purity.

Britain is a foreign country to me, but if I’m buying a Cockwell boat it is going to matter if it was built in the UK or India.

[Birchtop]

Originally Posted by 100LL

i think you’re kind of missing the point. it’s not about national pride, it’s a discussion about quality and standards and (maybe) purity.

Britain is a foreign country to me, but if I’m buying a Cockwell boat it is going to matter if it was built in the UK or India.

Yeah, Marshall and Celestion come to mind. I definitely would prefer a UK manufactured Marshall amp over their Vietnamese manu’d product (although I have a couple of each).

Same goes with Celestion Speakers

[Wellington]

Originally Posted by Birchtop

Yeah, Marshall and Celestion come to mind. I definitely would prefer a UK manufactured Marshall amp over their Vietnamese manu’d product (although I have a couple of each).

Same goes with Celestion Speakers

Off topic, but how do you like your FS820? I've been looking at them online for a while, wouldn't mind having an FS but all the videos I've seen of it don't seem to be mic'd well or its just a very thin and bright guitar, how is it in 'real life'?

[Birchtop]

Originally Posted by d.loseth

Off topic, but how do you like your FS820? I've been looking at them online for a while, wouldn't mind having an FS but all the videos I've seen of it don't seem to be mic'd well or its just a very thin and bright guitar, how is it in 'real life'?

I love it, it’s a great little guitar.

My FS820 is definitely not thin. And it is louder than one would think for a guitar of this size. It has lots of clear midrange, and it is bright on the treble side. Can be boomy at times, but still handles strumming very well.

Strings: D’addario EJ16 or Martin SP4100

[Brucebubs]

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by d.loseth

Something I've often thought about is my prejudices towards certain models of guitars under certain iconic brands.
Martin for instance, sometimes I feel like their flagship legendary models are so iconic that it takes away from their Mexican made guitars.

I will admit to sharing this prejudice. A guitar you like is a guitar you like no matter where it's made, but a "real" Martin comes from Pennsylvania.

It's a distinction that has no function in the real world, but that's where I am.
I have no problem with any company providing less expensive goods to reach a different audience, but I like them labeled as such.

[rwmct]

I feel pretty similar to the sentiments expressed in the first two posts, even though I too think the imported Guilds are nice guitars.

I can't imagine having an imported Martin. Don't see the point. Martin, to me, is and always will be the 18 series and above. When I think Martin, that is what I picture in my mind.

My New Hartford made F-30 Std. was part of Guild's inexpensive line, but that was almost entirely about simple appointments, not build quality or material. Made at the same factory on the same lines by the same people who made the more blingy models. I don't think of it as a budget instrument.

For some reason, the fact that my Telecaster was made in Mexico does not bother me. Do I wish it was a USA made Tele? Yes, and I will probably acquire one at some point.

[hubcapsc]

Brucebub's picture is awesome... I like the looks of the Martin
way more because it doesn't have that "silly moustache" of
a bridge ...

-Mike

[YeOldRocker]

FWIW, the Mexican made Road Series guitars are easily on quality/sound par with Martin's other USA solid wood guitars (below the 18 series), and - as far as I know, the factory in Mexico is Martin run, not built in some generic facility also knocking out other low-end instruments.

For example, there is not, in my opinion, a hugely discernible build quality or sound difference between the D10 sapele and a D15 (that isn't related to the sapele/mahogany preferences), especially if you choose to upgrade its saddle to bone and don't have an unreasonable hatred of Richlite as a fretboard/bridge material. They are, of course, acoustic electrics, with a decent but still simple under-saddle pickup, which traditionalists may hate, but if you have to electrify a D15, you also just jumped its cost well above the D10s and may end up with a similar pickup anyway.

Ultimately, the Road Series acoustics I've played all sound pretty much as you'd expect a Martin to sound. They are not noticeably lesser guitars, just not necessarily high end, which also sometimes is a better thing (playing in clubs, for instance, once we get to do things like that again, you're less likely to worry about a bump or two).

While I'd much rather own, say, a D18 than a D10 - the former being a much better instrument overall - the cost differential is enormous, even for used D18s. So, if money is an issue and you need a good guitar that sounds unquestionably like a Martin is supposed to sound, I think any argument against a non-USA made Martin is coming from some largely irrational place, which is cool, but should be admitted to as such.

FWIW, I don't own a Road Series guitar, having only played a number of them before the recent lockdown. I am, however, still kicking myself I didn't grab the even lower priced floor D10 sapele model I particularly liked some months ago. Fortunately, I have other guitars at home I am grateful to own, including a Martin, and the shops will open again, eventually...

[Coler]

Originally Posted by zmf

It's simple. Just keep repeating this mantra.

Anything with an "18" or higher in the model name is a Martin.

(Or so I hear tell.)

That's rubbish.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by Birchtop

Yeah, Marshall and Celestion come to mind. I definitely would prefer a UK manufactured Marshall amp over their Vietnamese manu’d product (although I have a couple of each).

Same goes with Celestion Speakers

+1. I have three Marshall 100 watt heads and two 4x12 cabs and they're all made in England. I'd buy the new DSL HR series amp though and that's made in Vietnam but you're right in that there's something about an English made Marshall.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

Brucebub's picture is awesome... I like the looks of the Martin
way more because it doesn't have that "silly moustache" of
a bridge ...

-Mike

Funny, I prefer the Gibson because the silly Martin is missing the awesome moustache bridge!

[H165]

I confess I prefer the Japanese Fenders over all the others made outside the USA. There's no reason for it...it's just my preference.

Since 1984, I have considered Nashville a foreign country.....

Way back, Gibson made Two "levels" with the Kalamazoo brand

I think about 50 levels might be closer to the mark.

Kalamazoo, Buckeye, Oriole, Epiphone, Kramer, Maestro, Steinberger, and Tobias, Dobro, Slingerland, Valley Arts, Baldwin (including Chickering, Hamilton, and Wurlitzer).

" From 1926 through 1970, Gibson guitars made over 40 different brands and over 300 different models of instruments that didn't carry the Gibson name. The vast majority of the "budget brands" were made during The Great Depression. They include Bellson, B&S Barrington, Oriole, Cromwell, Kalamazoo, Ambassador, Capital, Carson Robison, Ray Whitley, Andy Sannella, Fascinator, Francis Day & Hunter, Grinnell, Hayden, Kel Kroydon, Martelle, Marshall Special, Henry L. Mason, Mastertone Special, Mitchell Brothers, Old Kraftsman (Spiegel), Montgomery Wards/Recording King, Reznick Radio Special, S.S. Stewart, Trujo & Truett, Washburn, and Werlein Leader. Gibson also supplied many guitar components for National/Valco. Here is the most complete collection of all of the known "budget brands" including descriptions, catalog illustrations, shipping ledgers entries, and photographs of existing instruments. New brands keep popping up all the time with names like Joe C. Sapp, Morris King, Marlin Conrad Studios, Levy-Page, Liberty, B&S Barrington, Pifer, Robinson, Clark, Concentino and Forbes Radio Special that were all recently discovered. It is almost certain that more budget brands have yet to be discovered. "

[Ray175]

As the owner of a 2001 Road Series JM Mahogany Jumbo, I can confirm the quality of construction and materials is very high. The price difference on this model is essentially down to the puritan level of appointments and satin finish. I own a wide range of guitars, including a PAF loaded 1961 ES-175D and a 1961 strat, so my appreciation of the Martin is not down to price but is 100% on the merits of sound and playability. If people get hung up on geographic origins, that’s an issue for them and they are free to take that position - my own view is that they are missing out......