Is moon spruce appropriate for classical guitars?

[GuitarsWeB]

Actually, Ramirez was not the first to use Western Red Cedar, but for sure, he popularized it starting in the early 1960's...per Richard Brune

[ckmurf]

So I posted this question on the Santa Cruz forum Wednesday, and today they dropped a podcast where Richard Hoover discussed moon spruce. Now that’s customer service! This was incredibly interesting as he delved into areas such as 500 years of family tradition, wisdom, and provenance. Well worth a listen. He didn’t talk about magic and fairies, he talked about sound principles (no pun intended).
Here’s a link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3LBorqX1_k

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by ckmurf

This was incredibly interesting as he delved into areas such as 500 years of family tradition, wisdom, and providence. Well worth a listen. He didn’t talk about magic and fairies, he talked about sound principles (no pun intended).

500 years ago....
- no luthiers had ever seen western red cedar, most rosewoods, Adirondack spruce, Sitka spruce, koa, or any wood from Australia, Tasmania, North and South America or New Zealand.
- geared tuners didn't exist
- steel strings weren't used
- carbon fiber didn't exist
- luthiery as we know it was in its infancy

Most people still thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe. So there still are some persistent myths, folklore and fantasy that continue to be adhered to today by some. Moon spruce, IMO, is one of them.

[cobalt60]

Exactly - 500 year-old processes might have produced favorable results. Modern processes might replace them. Also, people cut FAR MORE wood today than in the past, so there is far greater opportunity to pick purpose-fit trees.



ckmurf, nobody is arguing against the idea that a moon spruce board might be great. Based on these posts, and your same thread on DelCamp, you seem entranced by the idea of the wood. That's great - get it and enjoy it!


I'm certain my closet, shop, and pantry are chock full of items I purchased simply because I liked the story, brand, or magic behind them. We all do, no worries.

[ckmurf]

Cobalt60, I would like to thank you for consistently giving thoughtful, balanced comments. I will break a quote from you into three parts, and respond:

ckmurf, nobody is arguing against the idea that a moon spruce board might be great.

Yes, you are correct for this forum the responses here have been quite excellent. On the other forum there is a mix of good feedback and childish wisecracks. I quickly grew exhausted of them and maybe that impacted the way I would reply. I apologize.

Based on these posts, and your same thread on DelCamp, you seem entranced by the idea of the wood.

This is also true. These threads grew a life of their own… some steel string builders and players whom I greatly respect endorse the wood without invoking the fairy dust effect. I thought that the SCGC podcast that I posted captured that pretty well. Based on these more experienced and knowledgeable people I do believe that for whatever reason, proper moon spruce is killer on a steel string guitar. Additionally, in forums I see the suggestion that “German spruce” isn’t always real German spruce… even suggestions that it is often Engelmann… the moon spruce angle adds provenance and traceability. This is not a bad thing. My original question was will it translate over to nylon strings… and it mutated from there.

That's great - get it and enjoy it!

Good advice. I am getting some for my luthier to evaluate. Thanks for your great interaction.

[Carey]

The bit I mentioned above in the thread is found in American Lutherie
issue 139, Spring 2020, page 71. Summarizing it would not really
work, but the writer provides a number of citations suggesting there could be something to 'Moon Spruce'. One that looks interesting is:

"Research on the influence of the moon-phase related felling date on the drying process of Norway Spruce.." Diploma thesis, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Wood Sciences, Zurich. 42 pp, 1999.


Spruce that's used in recent guitars will usually have some sapwood in the working area, unless it's Sitka- which might not, because they're typically bigger trees. Some nice illustrative photos
can be found in the UMGF link above.

[Carey]

Playing Devil's Advocate on wood for a moment, though- one of the most satisfying nylon-string guitars I've ever played was a Martin OO-28G, with a Sitka (I'm fairly sure) top with tons of runout, *way* off-quarter, joined at the heart. All "wrong", yet it sounded very good, especially up the neck in the trebles; in fact, some things about its sound are still benchmarks for me.

[GuitarsWeB]

That's the strange thing about wooden instruments. I remember back in the early 1960's. It was always a rule of thumb, spruce tops had to have 12 or more grain per inch to be considered any good. Another myth, cedar goes dead after 15 or so years. I've seen guitars come out of Peracho, Mexico made of "what ever wood," and many sound very good. So, there is really no cut and dry rule on wood. Your Martin shows that. A good instrument is a good instrument.

[redir]

If you think that moon spruce will make a better guitar then it probably will but not for reasons that you may think.

[GuitarsWeB]

Originally Posted by redir

If you think that moon spruce will make a better guitar then it probably will but not for reasons that you may think.

Yes....in life, perception is reality.