Zoom H5 vs RME

[lppier]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi lppier
Check out the F6 (latest addition to the lineup).

The F6 is innovative, and to recording what RAW is to camera technology. More headroom, and ability to boost

I saw that the f4 and f6 were priced the same where I am actually - interesting. Does Logic on macOS support 32 bit float recording?

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yes, stereo, XY. The mic cable splits out into 2 XLRs, so it's just like plugging in 2 mics.

To be persnickety, the 4050ST is a mid/side mic with an option to use either the raw mid and side or a decoded X/Y equivalent.

Fran

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi keith

It's a clever use of the technology and as a remote recorder (I'm thinking video remote) it's a great first step in a new direction for a quick moving atmosphere where simple mistakes can be expensive (for reshooting), and limited personnel (where the sound guy has to do other functions as well).

You are right, it's expensive, but when we are comparing Zoom H6 versus any of the F series Zooms, it's likely warranted expense.

Well, last I checked the H6 was half the price of an F6, and for home recorders, that's the price of a pretty nice mic. Based on the years that I used the H6 (for 6 channel recording) and the quality of those recordings (no complaints, ever), I'd not make that recommendation to anyone that's budget conscious. (My H6 went to a guy who's making his living doing wedding videos, so even there, it's quite acceptable.)

The F series is really designed for a little more rigorous, or maybe "pro" usage, with a metal case, data entry and external control capability, better external power options, time syncing, etc. Lots of stuff that is unimportant for simple, even if high quality, audio recording. Would I choose an F6 over and F4? Of course, but there's no way it offers anything over my F8 & F8n that is of use to me, plus I can sync record 16 tracks with the two of them, and that I cannot do with the F6.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by lppier

How about the guitar? Is it one of your personal ones ? The tone is stellar.

Yes, that's one of my guitars, built by Tom Doerr.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

To be persnickety, the 4050ST is a mid/side mic with an option to use either the raw mid and side or a decoded X/Y equivalent.

Fran

Yeah, I just use it in XY mode - I'd actually prefer MS directly, but it's hard to deal with the balance of an MS signal with the Zoom (tho I may be missing some trick)

[lppier]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I've done some comparisons of the H6 to an RME UFX if that's helpful: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/index.php?s=h6+rme



Most of these posts include .WAV samples to download and evaluate.



Fran

Hi Fran, I listed to your comparisons on YouTube between the two - frankly I can hardly tell any difference with the condenser mic one. With the ribbon mic, yes, the noise floor was different.

Curious about true x-y mics that the h6 comes with - would you consider using it to record acoustic guitar for your pieces? How far is it from other mics you have?

[Doug Young]

The built-in mics on the newer Zoom's (H5, H6, and I think the newer H4 should all be the same mics) are surprisingly "OK" - you have to keep mind that they probably cost like a few dollars at most. In spite of that they're quite usable. I think if you search here, you find some examples, I'm pretty sure I posted some when I first got my H6. They tend to be a bit thinner sounding than at least the individual mics I have (keep in mind we're talking a pretty big price difference), and they have more self-noise than most - very common with budget mics, and these are truly "budget". But the biggest limitation of the builtin mics is that you are stuck with XY. Fine if that's all you want to use, but with external mics you get more placement choice, which can easily translate into a better sound just due to placement, regardless of mic quality. Of course, with external mics, you lose some of the convenience of a self-contained unit.

[lppier]

Thanks for the info Doug! I was hoping to keep it as minimal as possible, looks like I’ll still whip out my beyerdynamic mc930s!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by lppier

Thanks for the info Doug! I was hoping to keep it as minimal as possible, looks like I’ll still whip out my beyerdynamic mc930s!

Found the old shootout thread I did with the zoom:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=359079

Wow, 5 years ago, the H6/5 have been around for a while! Funny, I just listened to the examples blind without remembering which was which, and at least with a quick listen, I kind of prefer the one with the Zoom internal mics. Check it out without reading down to find the key and see what you think!

[lppier]

Doug, I also preferred B, but I think it could have been the performance being more dynamic.
Something about B made me feel something, stirring some emotion.
Nevertheless, this has shown me that yes, I can record with the zoom internal mics and have it sound great.

[keith.rogers]

I think "Ok" is the operative word for the internal mics based on a very quick listen on a pair of newish iPhone earbuds . "B" stood out as something I'd grow tired of as it sounded, though, clearly, a little massaging could probably make it much more like the other 2. And, if it wasn't too early for me to drag myself upstairs, different listening equipment might have softened my impression.

But, those H6s were way ahead of the curve and still are a great little piece of gear. I was an early adopter (I think nudged by one of Fran's early reviews). With that XLR adapter they made a great poor man's field recorder, and they also have a MS mic and can run forever on one of those phone charger power packs via USB.

I did use it as an interface, as a proof of concept, as well (as I've done with the F8). Works "Ok" there, too; though I think I've described that use as an "in a pinch" choice for me, if for no other reason because it's not well heavy enough to stay well planted in desktop use.

P.S. (edit): I don't have any shootouts, but I went back and found a couple videos about a year apart of a local singer-songwriter I recorded in 2017 and 2018. The first was done with the H6, the second with the F8. Now, these are not FX-less, and there's no telling what I might have done slightly differently in the mix but I'm pretty sure I used the 1st [DAW] project as a template for the one a year later. Unfortunately, the only mic here is the club's well-used SM58. Fiddle and guitar are direct (maybe a little in the fiddler's vocal mic but I honestly don't remember).

Pretty much indistinguishable in this usage, if there's still any questions about the F4, anyway.

Zoom H6
https://youtu.be/DwNY5zaqaok

Zoom F8
https://youtu.be/_DUDIvmtgFc

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yes, that's one of my guitars, built by Tom Doerr.

Doug is being modest because Doug is a world class finger style player who is modest, so I'll say it.

Doug's tone sounds amazing because it is Doug playing. All this gear and all these instruments help, and no doubt having a custom guitar helps, but I really have concluded that tone actually is fundamentally in the fingers.

It is mysterious to me, but after all these years, no matter what rig, Clapton, Knopfler, Mayer, Gill, Urban etc, all have unmistakably recognizable tone.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by lppier

Doug, I also preferred B, but I think it could have been the performance being more dynamic.
Something about B made me feel something, stirring some emotion.
Nevertheless, this has shown me that yes, I can record with the zoom internal mics and have it sound great.

These are all the same performance - I played once, recorded simultaneously with 3 stereo pairs. So any difference in dynamics, etc, is due to the signal chain and/or mic placement.

[lppier]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

These are all the same performance - I played once, recorded simultaneously with 3 stereo pairs. So any difference in dynamics, etc, is due to the signal chain and/or mic placement.

Ah, I see! Interesting..
I Guess in many of such cases, our mind tells us to hear what we want to hear.

[lppier]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

I think "Ok" is the operative word for the internal mics based on a very quick listen on a pair of newish iPhone earbuds . "B" stood out as something I'd grow tired of as it sounded, though, clearly, a little massaging could probably make it much more like the other 2. And, if it wasn't too early for me to drag myself upstairs, different listening equipment might have softened my impression.



But, those H6s were way ahead of the curve and still are a great little piece of gear. I was an early adopter (I think nudged by one of Fran's early reviews). With that XLR adapter they made a great poor man's field recorder, and they also have a MS mic and can run forever on one of those phone charger power packs via USB.



I did use it as an interface, as a proof of concept, as well (as I've done with the F8). Works "Ok" there, too; though I think I've described that use as an "in a pinch" choice for me, if for no other reason because it's not well heavy enough to stay well planted in desktop use.



P.S. (edit): I don't have any shootouts, but I went back and found a couple videos about a year apart of a local singer-songwriter I recorded in 2017 and 2018. The first was done with the H6, the second with the F8. Now, these are not FX-less, and there's no telling what I might have done slightly differently in the mix but I'm pretty sure I used the 1st [DAW] project as a template for the one a year later. Unfortunately, the only mic here is the club's well-used SM58. Fiddle and guitar are direct (maybe a little in the fiddler's vocal mic but I honestly don't remember).



Pretty much indistinguishable in this usage, if there's still any questions about the F4, anyway.



Zoom H6

https://youtu.be/DwNY5zaqaok



Zoom F8

https://youtu.be/_DUDIvmtgFc

Yep, in the grand scheme of things , these two videos seem to be the same quality wise. If anything I felt the second clip was more well mixed, and that’s probably nothing to do with the recorder.