Omni vs wide cardioid small condenser mic

[alohachris]

PM'ed Ya, Chipotle,

alohachris

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I've been going around in circles on my next mic purchase as well. I failed to find any place locally that rented much beyond SM58s and the odd SM7B. Where can I find this magical place that will let me rent whatever mics I am interested in?

Good news / Bad news

Here is a place where you can rent Schoeps with any capsule...as well as many other microphones as well.

Rental fees are very reasonable at $45 a day.

Bad news is, ...by the time you pay for shipping back and forth...for just two mics you are talking $200 Plus for a one day rental. Renting it during a weekend period I believe you can stretch that one day to two days.

Good News is they will actually take off the price of the rental if you buy new mics through them. So virtually you are getting a free rental trial.

https://soundmirror.com/equipment-rental/

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Good news / Bad news

Here is a place where you can rent Schoeps with any capsule...as well as many other microphones as well.

Rental fees are very reasonable at $45 a day.

Bad news is, ...by the time you pay for shipping back and forth...for just two mics you are talking $200 Plus for a one day rental.

Thanks. That model works if you're interested in the high-end mics costing thousands, I suppose. Stuff like the Schoeps and DPA are a little over my budget, though. Once you get into less expensive models, it really isn't cost-effective (even if you can find the mics you want to compare).

Side note: who would rent an SM57 for $30/day plus shipping? For the cost of a 2-day rental you could just buy one.

[AcousticDreams]

Hey Celestialpivot. I just ordered today a pair of CMC621's. They are backordered right now..so I am told it will take three weeks before I get them.

It has taken me a couple of years of research, and lots & lots of procrastination, but finally I did it! I have tried Used the 4's and 41's but not the 21's.

I will let you know after I get a chance to play with them how they work for myself.

The important thing to remember is that ..there is no such thing as one best. Only what is best for our individual needs.

For myself, I definitely like the Omni sound, better than Cardiod. And I like to close mic. Hopefully the wide cardiod will give me the best of both worlds for my less than perfect home studio.

[alohachris]

Congratulations Knives&Guitars!

I know how long you scrimped, saved & sacrificed for your Schoeps CMC621's. Now that their on the way, how do you feel?

Wow, your process & determination must have been like a very long pregnancy or like a kid waiting years for Christmas Day. I can't wait to hear what you think & also have you share your music with us.

Again, why the wide cardioid instead of omni? "Best of both worlds?"

K&G, a perfectionist & true artist deserves to use the best tools. Schoeps is it, my friend. You deserve them.

Please remind me again of your signal chain & treatment?

Enjoy the ride, Knives&Guitars!

alohachris

PS: I often return to the amazing pictures you shared of your one of a kind bladed creations for inspiration. Thanks again! BTW, where did you get your Schoeps from?

PPS: I sold off almost every recording tool I owned about eight years ago. Even though I don't record now & cannot even play a guitar anymore, I still hold onto my backup CMC641's. They were built in 2008 & yet have less than an hour's use on them. I just can't say good-bye to Schoep's - one of the few GOAT's (for my ears) I've experienced in my life. All the Best K&G!-alohachris-

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Congratulations Knives&Guitars!

I know how long you scrimped, saved & sacrificed for your Schoeps CMC621's. Now that their on the way, how do you feel?

Wow, your process & determination must have been like a very long pregnancy or like a kid waiting years for Christmas Day. I can't wait to hear what you think & also have you share your music with us.

Again, why the wide cardioid instead of omni? "Best of both worlds?"

K&G, a perfectionist & true artist deserves to use the best tools. Schoeps is it, my friend. You deserve them.

Please remind me again of your signal chain & treatment?

Enjoy the ride, Knives&Guitars!

alohachris

PS: I often return to the amazing pictures you shared of your one of a kind bladed creations for inspiration. Thanks again! BTW, where did you get your Schoeps from?

PPS: I sold off almost every recording tool I owned about eight years ago. Even though I don't record now & cannot even play a guitar anymore, I still hold onto my backup CMC641's. They were built in 2008 & yet have less than an hour's use on them. I just can't say good-bye to Schoep's - one of the few GOAT's (for my ears) I've experienced in my life. All the Best K&G!-alohachris-

Thank you so much Alohachris for the kind words. Sincerely I appreciate it.

How do I feel? Relief & Excitement. Of course with that always comes a tiny bit of fear & doubt. Such is human nature. But I have no doubt that Schoeps is what I need.

Choosing the wide cardiod over omni is a long one to explain. My style of playing is a combination of dynamic strumming combined with fingerstyle. I play with heavier gauge strings than most and are a harder player. Most people note that my guitar volume is loud. Because of this style, I get a lot of tonal information from a wide area on my guitar. Omni gives me that more open sound I desire. Omni captures the wider area on the guitar...but you must have a better room. I have tried the 4's and 41's and they sound wonderful...but again for my style a bit more open polar pattern is what I desire. I also like to close mic. The 21's have an ever so slight roll off on the bass end and a slight rise of 2 db on the top end. For close micing this might help. Of course...all of this is theory at this point. We shall see!

There are other reasons as well.

Recording chain..is virtually none right now. I will be purchasing with in the next month a new interface and most likely a stereo compressor. Right now I am liking the Audient Id44. I am a hands on kind of guy..and the Id44 has Sends so I can add a stereo compressor.

Treatment is my next objective. I will be reading through all of your suggestions in the current thread about this.

And I am totally on the same page as you about not selling something that you consider so special. I am the same way on a couple of bass guitars I own. I do not play bass, but they are so special= plus my dear friend made them for me. I could never sell them. They are a symbol that brings wonderful reflections of a great time in my life. There are just some things that can not be replaced.

Here is one of the basses I am talking about. Perfectly aligned Flamed Ash. And a very unique finger board as well with both Paduak and Maple.

[celestialpivot]

Ok aloha Chris
I purchased the mk2 Omni Schoeps capsules, they are on there way.
I spoke to Schoeps and they recommended it.
I Have the mk4’s and I wanted a different sound and they said the Omni
Capsule would give me the most difference from the mk4’s.
The 21 and 22 capsules can sound similar they said to the the mk4’s.
Not a dramatic change.
So looking forward to trying them.
I also spoke with an engineer who uses the josephson 617’s a lot.
He said they really sound best in a big room. So I passed on them.
How should I position them on my acoustic? Can I do ORTF?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Thank you so much Alohachris for the kind words. Sincerely I appreciate it.

How do I feel? Relief & Excitement. Of course with that always comes a tiny bit of fear & doubt. Such is human nature. But I have no doubt that Schoeps is what I need.

Choosing the wide cardiod over omni is a long one to explain. My style of playing is a combination of dynamic strumming combined with fingerstyle. I play with heavier gauge strings than most and are a harder player. Most people note that my guitar volume is loud. Because of this style, I get a lot of tonal information from a wide area on my guitar. Omni gives me that more open sound I desire. Omni captures the wider area on the guitar...but you must have a better room. I have tried the 4's and 41's and they sound wonderful...but again for my style a bit more open polar pattern is what I desire. I also like to close mic. The 21's have an ever so slight roll off on the bass end and a slight rise of 2 db on the top end. For close micing this might help. Of course...all of this is theory at this point. We shall see!

There are other reasons as well.

Recording chain..is virtually none right now. I will be purchasing with in the next month a new interface and most likely a stereo compressor. Right now I am liking the Audient Id44. I am a hands on kind of guy..and the Id44 has Sends so I can add a stereo compressor.

Treatment is my next objective. I will be reading through all of your suggestions in the current thread about this.

And I am totally on the same page as you about not selling something that you consider so special. I am the same way on a couple of bass guitars I own. I do not play bass, but they are so special= plus my dear friend made them for me. I could never sell them. They are a symbol that brings wonderful reflections of a great time in my life. There are just some things that can not be replaced.

Here is one of the basses I am talking about. Perfectly aligned Flamed Ash. And a very unique finger board as well with both Paduak and Maple.

I can attest to the quality of and outstanding sound Schoeps, and my only regret in audio gear was selling mine.

Just out of curiosity what is your budget range for a Compressor ? And are you thinking tracking or mixing or perhaps both ?
The reason I ask is because If I were looking for one single comp (stereo bus mixing and perhaps tracking ) and I was wanting to keep it under $1000
One possibility to consider is Audio Scape. It is modeled after the SSL G console compressor
https://www.audio-scape.com/products/buss-compressor
It seems to be one of those "under the radar" value priced but good quality audio companies.
Limited runs of production made in US from US components
If I did not already have an outstanding Bus Comp I would be looking at this

[celestialpivot]

Manley ELOP plus I here is great for acoustic guitar recording
It’s on sale now.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by celestialpivot

Manley ELOP plus I here is great for acoustic guitar recording
It’s on sale now.

While at that price range there are a number of fairly good candidates I would agree if your looking for an opto limiting comp the ELOP plus is an excellent choice quality and sound wise, however personally I prefer to be able to step control , Attack , Ratio, and Release

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I can attest to the quality of and outstanding sound Schoeps, and my only regret in audio gear was selling mine.

Just out of curiosity what is your budget range for a Compressor ? And are you thinking tracking or mixing or perhaps both ?
The reason I ask is because If I were looking for one single comp (stereo bus mixing and perhaps tracking ) and I was wanting to keep it under $1000
One possibility to consider is Audio Scape. It is modeled after the SSL G console compressor
https://www.audio-scape.com/products/buss-compressor
It seems to be one of those "under the radar" value priced but good quality audio companies.
Limited runs of production made in US from US components
If I did not already have an outstanding Bus Comp I would be looking at this

Thank you so much KevWind for this recommendation, would love to talk more about this.

I would be using compression for Tracking. I know that many feel that compression for tracking is not necessary these days. But I am old school, and back in the days that is how we did it. And....I do play with a huge dynamic -volume range. I combine Rhythmic-drum like strumming with intricate finger style and single note rifts.

On the other hand, As I continue to refine and become a more accomplished player...I worry about compression loosing the explosive transients from my style of playing. So what I need is a compressor that does not loose any of that and simply levels the dynamic range.

What are the characteristics of this compressor & can it be stereo coupled?
I have been considering the Elysia Xpressor Stereo Compressor. It is suppose to be a very transparent compressor. But very interested in your recommendation. I read briefly and there are some interesting features that this unit has.

And What are your thoughts about Craneborne preamps? I have heard a few demoes on Acoustic guitar using Larrivee's Om-40(which I am familiar with as I have two custom D-40 Larrivee's) and was impressed with the natural yet forward recording made with them.

I am such a novice in understanding the new Interfaces and best signal paths. The problem is that a preamp still runs through an Interface first. It is my understanding that is how all interfaces work. The stand alone Mic preamp will still run through the interface preamp first. This seems like there could be a compromise of signal this way.

Is there another route to rectify this? or is this not really an issue?

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

...
I am such a novice in understanding the new Interfaces and best signal paths. The problem is that a preamp still runs through an Interface first. It is my understanding that is how all interfaces work. The stand alone Mic preamp will still run through the interface preamp first. This seems like there could be a compromise of signal this way.

Is there another route to rectify this? or is this not really an issue?

Many interfaces have line level inputs in addition to mic inputs and high impedance instrument/pickup inputs. To use an external preamp, I simply connect it to a line level input on my interface and the signal does not go through a second preamp and basically just goes to the AD converters and/or the monitoring circuits.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Many interfaces have line level inputs in addition to mic inputs and high impedance instrument/pickup inputs. To use an external preamp, I simply connect it to a line level input on my interface and the signal does not go through a second preamp and basically just goes to the AD converters and/or the monitoring circuits.

Great Info sdelsoray!

Sometimes it is just in the way you word a question. Cause I have asked this question before to Focusrite via phone and Audient at NAMM. I realize now that I probably did not ask the question in the right way. They told me signal always goes through the preamp circuit. But.....I most likely worded it so that they thought I was talking about the XLR circuit. And I was thinking the RCA input was strictly High impedance and not line level. I was not thinking of the RCA as a line level.

The answer was right there before my eyes and I did not see it....ha ha...Sometimes you just have to laugh.

[celestialpivot]

Manley ELOP plus I here is great for acoustic guitar recording
It’s on sale now.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Many interfaces have line level inputs in addition to mic inputs and high impedance instrument/pickup inputs. To use an external preamp, I simply connect it to a line level input on my interface and the signal does not go through a second preamp and basically just goes to the AD converters and/or the monitoring circuits.

This is how I use my Apogee Ensemble. I can use the preamp inputs, and they're fine, but I also have 2 external preamps that are theoretically "better" that run into the Ensemble, and go directly to the A/D, bypassing the Ensemble's analog frontend.