intonation and barre chords

[Benjo]

hey folks

question for any of you playing with light guage strings especially on 12-string guitar-

do you encounter intonation issues on the 1st and 2nd strings when playing barre chords? when I play a barre chord on the 12-string, the 1st and especially 2nd string courses go way sharp because I am using a good deal of pressure to fret all 12 strings. It sounds pretty bad on those two strings because they are so sharp.

I am trying a slightly thicker gauge of string (.11s and 14s) in the hopes that this solves it.

It's not really possible to apply less pressure since then the octave strings beside the thicker bass strings will buzz.

anyone encountered this?

[Lakewood_Lad]

How close are you to the frets on those strings?

Also, what's the action like on your guitar? Can you have it lowered to make it easier to play the chords?

[Benjo]

Provably cant lower the action bc I play slide guitar as well on it and any lower and it would sizzle when playing slide

[Benjo]

Anyone? Bueller?

[Russ C]

Without seeing the guitar.. I can probably advise that you check the nut slots are cut at least close to fret height and you angle your saddle to flatten the offending strings as much as you can. If you're hearing significantly bad intonation that's more likely gonna only assist rather than cure. Why those 2 strings? I can only wonder if the above is worse with them.
It is possible to create and fit a thick saddle to assist with inadequate compensation but it ain't easy, and it would only put your intonation issues correct somewhere between playing slide and fretting.
Beyond that you may be asking too much having a slide action that's meant to intonate ok when fretted. Good luck.

[Brent Hahn]

You don't have to play all the strings. :-)

[Neil K Walk]

Unfortunately, it’s a setup issue. The higher the action generally the worse the intonation will be - partly because there’s more “wiggle room” for the string to be pulled sharp, either by bending it or by the slight deviation in scale length from the higher action. Essentially what you have is a guitar that is a jack of all trades but master of none that I would watch closely for potential neck angle issues.

Some questions come to mind:
1: Are these the original strings or did you go lighter in order to try to have the best of both worlds?
2: is the intonation at the 12th fret off? Does the fretted note on the 12th match the pitch of the natural harmonic.
3: how tall is the saddle?
4: is the neck “true” or is it warped and/or is the neck joint showing signs of coming apart? 12 strings are notorious for having neck angle issues.

My thought is to get it set up to handle 12s with a lower action and find another guitar to play slide, or keep it as it is and solely play slide on it and get another guitar you can play traditionally.

[Benjo]

Thanks, Neil.

Ahh, that's too bad to hear. I have had this problem with both my Taylor LKSM that I sold and now the Breedlove.

The action on the Breedlove is pretty good overall right now. It's manageable tuned down a whole step and at A 410 to play barre chords but the action is high enough to enable fairly clean slide playing without that sizzle sound like when the action is lower.

Answers to your qs:

1. Strings are a little wider than what was default on it. (2 x) .011, (2 x) .015, .024, .090, .032, .014, .043, .018, .052, .023. This Thomastik Infeld set, which I highly recommend BTW: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

2. Intonation on 12th fret is good.

3. No idea, haven't measured it.

4. No idea, haven't looked. Neck join doesn't look like it's coming apart.


Brent- I am only referring to strings that I am playing, and that the songs are calling for being played. Thought that was so obvious as to not need mentioning.

Russ - I might ask Breedlove about this. Thanks.

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by Benjo

It's not really possible to apply less pressure since then the octave strings beside the thicker bass strings will buzz.

The text quoted above is what makes me think you're got a set-up issue.

[jemartin]

oops… … wrong reply to your issue... deleted....

[musicman1951]

I don't have this problem, but my action is pretty low.

[Mandobart]

When notes on the first few frets are sharp and the instrument intonates correctly up the neck, its usually the nut slots are too shallow. Also, many players, particularly beginners, just plain mash the strings too hard.

All that is needed for good tone is to have the string in solid contact with the fret. If you keep clamping down until your fingers are exerting pressure on the fretboard you're pressing too hard. With light strings, especially on the high E and B, you will be sharp.

I learned this playing electric guitar. A "just right" touch is needed - just firm enough to sound clean With no buzz or rattle.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Benjo

hey folks

question for any of you playing with light guage strings especially on 12-string guitar-

do you encounter intonation issues on the 1st and 2nd strings when playing barre chords? when I play a barre chord on the 12-string, the 1st and especially 2nd string courses go way sharp because I am using a good deal of pressure to fret all 12 strings. It sounds pretty bad on those two strings because they are so sharp.

I am trying a slightly thicker gauge of string (.11s and 14s) in the hopes that this solves it.

It's not really possible to apply less pressure since then the octave strings beside the thicker bass strings will buzz.

anyone encountered this?

Thought no.1 - 11s slightly thicker ? They are VERY light strings. I woldn't expect such light strings fret without bending.
I use 12/12-54/30 tuned down one tone.

Thinks No.2. What do you mean by barre? If you mean using your index finger to fret across all 12 strings - I would anticipate issues.

I only use my index finger on the 1st and 2nd courses and thumb over the bass course - much easier.

thinks no. 3 - " .... because I am using a good deal of pressure to fret all 12 strings. It sounds pretty bad on those two strings because they are so sharp".
well,there's your problem, tiny wee strings stretched hard over frets - boufd to be an issue.

Solution options:

* Use at least 12 gauge
* change your style of chord making (thumb over).
* remember that on a 6 string you are usually making two chords, and on a 12 - you are making 4 - you don't need them all.
* (Important lesson - took me years!) - learn to fret only enough to press the strings to the fret. This gives your playing a faster and smoother style.