Wide/Narrow grain on spruce tops ???

[Christian Reno]

Many have already weighed in on the growth causes of narrow and wider grains, so that is covered. My observation and opinion is strictly from having many examples of both over the years. Narrow grain tops in general give me more of what I’m looking for in top response and that is my main criteria.

I spoke to a Breedlove dealer who said Kim Breedlove told him that he (Kim) prefers wider grain tops and considers them to be superior. I have no way to know if this is an accurate statement, but I have my doubts that KB would have said that for a lot of reasons.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I would like some opinions/wisdom about this.
I assume that wide grain indicates faster growth than narrow grain, and so the latter indicates an older tree ???

What is considered best tonally and/or cosmetically?

Also I have this lovely new Eastman guitar (said to have an "adi" top)which compared to my other guitars looks extremely pallid.
Is there a way to speed the darkening process?

Thanks in advance.
(edited to correct my careless spelling)

Hi SM

I have two solo-built spruce topped guitars, one Italian Spruce with tight grain and the other Sitka with medium wide grain. The Sitka top was built in 2003 and the Italian Spruce top in 2005. They are both solo-built guitars and though very different in character (OM and Mini-Jumbo with 16" lower bout), they both sound amazing.

I'd say the builder who voiced the guitar is equally important to the sound with either wide or narrow grained Spruce.

I also have a Voyage-Air (factory built) solid spruce top with fairly narrow and uniform grain, and it sounds amazing as well! It's over 10 years old.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi SM

I have two solo-built spruce topped guitars, one Italian Spruce with tight grain and the other Sitka with medium wide grain. The Sitka top was built in 2003 and the Italian Spruce top in 2005. They are both solo-built guitars and though very different in character (OM and Mini-Jumbo with 16" lower bout), they both sound amazing.

I'd say the builder who voiced the guitar is equally important to the sound with either wide or narrow grained Spruce.

I also have a Voyage-Air (factory built) solid spruce top with fairly narrow and uniform grain, and it sounds amazing as well! It's over 10 years old.

Hi LJ, I totally concur with your point. My enquiry was simply about opinions of grain width.

There are many variable that go to make up tonal quality not least the builders/makers/assemblers, tonewood, design and finishing, but I was simply asking this one aspect.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I assume that wide grain indicates faster growth than narrow grain, and so the latter indicates an older tree ???

What is considered best tonally and/or cosmetically?

I've seen plenty of people state opinions about tighter grain being better, but in the real world I've never noticed a correlation. I've played plenty of great guitars that have wider grain and plenty that have tighter grain.

Cosmetically, I'm not at all concerned about grain being tight, wide, or mixed on the same top. So far as tops are concerned, the only thing I don't care for is run out, but that's strictly an aesthetic preference that has nothing to do with tone.

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Cosmetically, I'm not at all concerned about grain being tight, wide, or mixed on the same top. So far as tops are concerned, the only thing I don't care for is run out, but that's strictly an aesthetic preference that has nothing to do with tone.

I agree in terms of disliking run out. However, I love the aesthetics of spruce silking, and it seems that the tighter the grain, the better the silking.

That's just me, however? I also like bear claw.

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

Beats me! I just keep playing guitars until I find the one that sounds best.

You're so 1965.

[Organic Sounds Select Guitars]

Also curious about the significance of grain width. I look, for example, at this adirondack top from my Kopp: extremely narrow in the middle, wider towards the edges, silking in some sections, and I wonder about the extremes of weather and conditions that this tree experienced during its life.

[jaan]

Originally Posted by LWSog

Also curious about the significance of grain width. I look, for example, at this adirondack top from my Kopp: extremely narrow in the middle, wider towards the edges, silking in some sections, and I wonder about the extremes of weather and conditions that this tree experienced during its life.

All I know is, that sunburst is beautiful! Great top, I could just stare at it.

[PTL]

There is not absolute correlation. It is more up to the specific tree and piece.

I actually had two Adirondack guitars on had- one has the finest grain that I know of. It is a famous 'Smokies' top with something like 40 lines per inch. Another is 1/4" per grain line at the widest - that is amazingly wide. Both were truly excellent instruments. That really wide one was one of the most musical guitars I ever played in terms of dynamics - it was so incredibly linear in the volume to input that everything just sounded more musical.

There are some pros who want only really wide grain. And then there are some who want really fine grained. If you talk to really good luthiers and wood suppliers, I think you will find most confirming that the grain line per inch does not tell you about the quality of the tone.

[takamineGD93]

One of the theories of why stradivarious violins sounds so good is because of the very slow grown wood used as a result of a "small ice age" europe experienced some years before.

The same idea seems to be very deeply rooted among guitarbuilders.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by LWSog

Also curious about the significance of grain width. I look, for example, at this adirondack top from my Kopp: extremely narrow in the middle, wider towards the edges, silking in some sections, and I wonder about the extremes of weather and conditions that this tree experienced during its life.

Hi KWSog

Some of the grain width and silking in that top can be attributed to environmental/climate conditions and issues that particular tree faced in it's life.

But some of that could/can also be due to how that top set was cut off of the billet it came out of, and even how the billet was cut or cleaved out of a larger round...having to due with angles and degrees of angles cuts were made at.

But really...who cares...{;-)...when you have such a gorgeous sunburst top to look at, and such a great sounding guitar to play, as the Kopp no doubt is!


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[UncleJesse]

Originally Posted by LWSog

Also curious about the significance of grain width. I look, for example, at this adirondack top from my Kopp: extremely narrow in the middle, wider towards the edges, silking in some sections, and I wonder about the extremes of weather and conditions that this tree experienced during its life.

Either way that thing looks awesome. I've been drooling at Kopps online lately daring myself to hit the purchase button.

[slooky]

Originally Posted by fazool

The other question was about tone.

As I understand it , the narrower grain wood tends to be stiffer, which kinda makes sense - sort of like a wall with more studs, closer together.

So I think whichever attributes you can ascribe to a stiffer top would apply. Such as brighter sound, clearer more articulate ringing, more volume "headroom" but less responsive to a light touch. But I am making all that up from what seems to make sense in my head.....I think it's right, but I don't have objective evidence to back me up.

Sounds good to me,lol

[Mike Mandel]

I exchanged a Taylor 717 BE for a Taylor 717 BE WHB, because the WHB sounded so much better.

When I asked the guitar tech how they could sound so different, he pointed out that the grain was wider in the 717 I returned, and he had always heard that tighter grain was better for sound. Just what I heard...

[Pura Vida]

I meant to reply to this thread sooner, but got distracted. As others mentioned, grain width doesn't necessarily translate to sounding "better" or "worse." Narrow grain may result in a stiffer top, but it still comes down to how that top is voiced, thickness, type of bracing, etc. Lots of factors can influence the final product.

Red Spruce (which isn't just grown in the Adirondack Mountains) was largely harvested prior to WWII, and the replacement growth has just become big enough to support guitar production in recent years. Many of those trees have wider rings (or varying wide and narrow) b/c they had more light exposure than the old growth Red Spruce trees did many years ago. Sitka Spruce is fairly plentiful in the NW, and many of those harvested trees are 300-500yo with vary narrow growth rings.

As for the color, it can vary by species. It's been my experience that Red Spruce (Adirondack) may begin paler in color, but then transition into a yellow to gold color over time (depending on exposure to light). Englemann Spruce and some European/Alpine Spruce species can have a similar color path. Meanwhile, Sitka can begin a little darker and take on a little more orange-brown (pumpkin) tone as it ages. There's no way to speed up this darkening process, outside of increasing the guitar's exposure to light.