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  #61  
Old 07-29-2020, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by seannx View Post
He does say that the pinless bridge provides a more direct connection of the strings to the top than bridge pins, to give a stronger transfer of string vibration to the top. While I don’t imagine that would change the sound, maybe it could increase sensitivity plus slightly more volume. What do you all think?
How would you ever prove it?
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  #62  
Old 07-29-2020, 10:06 AM
seannx seannx is offline
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How would you ever prove it?
As the X20s seem to be very consistent in sound, unlike wood guitars, maybe one way would be to A/B an older and newer model. I agree it could be hard to prove, and was simply referencing Alistair's comment about string vibration transfer to the top with the new pinless design.
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  #63  
Old 07-29-2020, 10:12 AM
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As the X20s seem to be very consistent in sound, unlike wood guitars, maybe one way would be to A/B an older and newer model. I agree it could be hard to prove, and was simply referencing Alistair's comment about string vibration transfer to the top with the new pinless design.
Understood. I apologize if my question seemed a little blunt - not my intent.

It's just so difficult to do any kind of reasonably controlled test for such things.
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  #64  
Old 07-29-2020, 10:31 AM
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Understood. I apologize if my question seemed a little blunt - not my intent.

It's just so difficult to do any kind of reasonably controlled test for such things.
Indeed! We've certainly seen that over the years.
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  #65  
Old 07-29-2020, 12:07 PM
esimms86 esimms86 is offline
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Originally Posted by seannx View Post
As the X20s seem to be very consistent in sound, unlike wood guitars, maybe one way would be to A/B an older and newer model. I agree it could be hard to prove, and was simply referencing Alistair's comment about string vibration transfer to the top with the new pinless design.
That's why it might be beneficial to have both versions of the X20 checked out side by side by an established reviewer with no financial connection to Emerald. I also believe Alistair when he says that there is no tonal difference between the two, and I also expect that even a highly experienced reviewer like Tony would be hard pressed to subjectively detect a sonic difference between X20's with pin and pinless bridges.

Aside from that, it would helpful to have an impartial reviewer experience the ergonomic improvements with the two guitars side by side.
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  #66  
Old 07-29-2020, 02:36 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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I have often said that carbon fiber guitars are the perfect test bed for direct comparisons. They do not depend on that wildly variable material called "wood". Two guitars literally come out of the same mold using the same CF fabric and layup process (although in this case the new X20 would have a slightly different mold for the bevels and maybe the bridge).

I don't see how pinless or pinned bridges would make much difference in vibration transfer to the top. The string is either firmly anchored or not. Maybe this will become the CF version of the Great Bolted vs. Dovetail neck debates.
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  #67  
Old 07-29-2020, 06:39 PM
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[QUOTE=Earl49;6452369
I don't see how pinless or pinned bridges would make much difference in vibration transfer to the top. The string is either firmly anchored or not. Maybe this will become the CF version of the Great Bolted vs. Dovetail neck debates. [/QUOTE]

Yes! Opening up won't apply either.
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  #68  
Old 07-29-2020, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by seannx View Post
Yes! Opening up won't apply either.
What about ToneRite?
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  #69  
Old 07-31-2020, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by esimms86 View Post
That's why it might be beneficial to have both versions of the X20 checked out side by side by an established reviewer with no financial connection to Emerald. I also believe Alistair when he says that there is no tonal difference between the two, and I also expect that even a highly experienced reviewer like Tony would be hard pressed to subjectively detect a sonic difference between X20's with pin and pinless bridges.
Just like anything else designing and implementing an experiment in controlled conditions will be tedious (and boring). It's much more fun to show off your favorite new guitar trick than to make sounds that are clean enough and controlled enough to get down to what the sound differences are between Guitar A and Guitar B.

I do experimental design set up and testing as part of my job. I have yet to get a really clear (sound) difference between several guitars I own trying various plucking and strumming of notes or chords. I can get clear volume differences between full size (X20 size) and smaller guitars (Mini size) also with recognizable changes on the bass side. I can't say the same for comparing similar instruments though.

This reminds me of an experiment back in college between trumpets and cornets. The average trumpet player thought they could distinguish between the two, so we made several recordings of the same pieces by the same musicians. Ended up we recorded 10 musicians each playing one piece twice (once on trumpet and once cornet and each person played a different easy piece randomly assigned). Then we mixed up the order for playback and had other trumpet players and these 10 try to pick out the cornet and trumpet correctly. The 10 original players could reliably pick out their own work correctly, but that was about it. We also had 5 of the musicians try to make the cornet sound more like a trumpet and make the trumpet sound more like a cornet to check that aspect too. The other 5 weren't told to do anything but play the pieces. That bit ended up being a waste of effort, but it was fun tweaking the cornet to being a little sharp and playing the trumpet in a different style.

We ended up with decent recordings, but the results were no one could distinguish the difference in the recordings to any degree of accuracy in our set up. Our band instructor did the best, but he even missed a few.

My answer for any comparison between two guitars is if you don't hear anything obvious in the first couple of strums or plucks, then look at other things like ergonomics, feel, looks and price to figure out which one you want.

Bottom Line: I suspect my 2013 X20 is different in several ways than a 2018 X20 which is different from this newly redesigned X20. They probably sound significantly different too if I could get a good enough experiment, but I doubt I could reliably tell which is which in a blind comparison.

I would gladly take in a few instruments to do sound tests on. I don't have any decent recording equipment or a quiet room though. However, I will persevere. Emerald already has my address on file, and I am expecting another box from them any day if they were to put in a couple more items.
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  #70  
Old 07-31-2020, 09:22 AM
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Just like anything else designing and implementing an experiment in controlled conditions will be tedious (and boring)....... We ended up with decent recordings, but the results were no one could distinguish the difference in the recordings to any degree of accuracy in our set up. Our band instructor did the best, but he even missed a few....
Tom, interesting discussion and I suspected as much. Hearing something in 3D that you play live in a good room is so much different than any recording, even a great one played back through audiophile quality speakers.

According to email exchanges with Kevin yesterday, my custom X20 will be the new version. When it gets here in a few months, I will have both versions and will do some side-by-side comparison and report back. It is doubtful that I will bother with recordings though, since anything I could post on-line would be so compressed as to be useless. Maybe if I had the capability to make true binaural recordings in a studio with the right mics, but that is not available to me.
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  #71  
Old 07-31-2020, 09:37 AM
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Excellent response, Tom - it should be required reading for all the bridge-pin and tonewood sniffers out there

I could spend all day picking holes in peoples' comparison experiences presented here on the AGF - much of what is reported is simple confirmation bias. I made a change which I think is going to sound 'better', therefore, surprise, surprise, it does!

I don't want to be 'that guy' though, and I have way better things to do with my time - like wonder how the new bridge design will translate to a fan-fret Emerald, and when the Amicus is finally going to get an offset soundhole, and the new X20 features
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  #72  
Old 08-02-2020, 06:41 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I like all the changes made to the Emerald! Interesting however that carbon guitars have a much greater tendency to be redesigned which can make older guitars less desirable or valuable? One nice thing about my Rainsong jm1000 is it hasn’t changed? Classic Gibson J-200 carbon copy.
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  #73  
Old 08-02-2020, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
I like all the changes made to the Emerald! Interesting however that carbon guitars have a much greater tendency to be redesigned which can make older guitars less desirable or valuable? One nice thing about my Rainsong jm1000 is it hasn’t changed? Classic Gibson J-200 carbon copy.
Greater tendency for change? Hmm - this is the first redesign of the X20 since the introduction of the current model in 2012 (I believe that’s what Mr. Hay said).

The X7 was rather more recent, I’ll grant you, but most of what Emerald has been up to has been *new* models, not redesigns of the existing range.
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Last edited by David Eastwood; 08-02-2020 at 04:43 PM.
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  #74  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:26 PM
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You say “greater propensity for change”. I say “unburdened by tradition and willing to adapt”. Martin probably knows that a Taylor NT neck design is superior in terms of adjustability and warranty claims, but their hide-bound customer base clings stubbornly to the dovetail neck.

Speaking of Rainsong, owners of the Classic series saw resale values noticeably undercut by the composite-hybrid C-H models that were priced brand new well under the used value of something like your JM-1000. I have no plans to ever sell my WS-1000 but the demise of the C-H series helps preserve its value.
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  #75  
Old 08-02-2020, 07:47 PM
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Martin probably knows that a Taylor NT neck design is superior in terms of adjustability and warranty claims, but their hide-bound customer base clings stubbornly to the dovetail neck.
If their customer base wants to have the inevitable neck reset at ≈500.00 then I guess they vote with their money. I think that the dovetail and mortise and tenon joints are outdated but who am I to judge a company founded in 1833? Their guitars do sound fantastic, but Taylor has the right idea with that NT for sure.
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