Learning Guitar Scales...Again!

[trueviper]

Hi guys, just to expand on my previous thread in which I asked about guitar scales and how I could use them to play Bert Jansch songs because I mistakingly thought that's what Bert did but was then told what he actually did was play chords up and down the neck of the guitar.

Watching Bert play Black Waterside in this video was the reason why I thought Bert was playing a scale, to me he looks like he's playing individual notes which of course he is but within chords and not a scale?

Now this is definitely the type of playing I would eventually like to advance to, I particulary love the end sequence at 3:30. Man that guy could play!





Edit: my link doesn't seem to be working so here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkX7Q2J7k48

[FwL]

Chords, scales, arpeggios, cool clothes... they're all parts of the puzzle.

.

[Wyllys]

Then there's this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiential_learning

We (mostly) all learn our songs one at a time, starting in childhood. When taking up some musical endeavor such as "learning" to play guitar, we have at least some musical reference in the beginning...acquired without formal study.
Establishing a connection between our experience and our desired path forward is very helpful. It's there, we just need to find it.

Piece by piece, song by song, we expand our inner library of reference material from which we draw and from which we progress. Comparisons such as "it's like this/that" or "it's a bit different from this/that" allow us to understand various relationships within the musical context. After a time, patterns emerge.

VOILA!!! The system reveals itself: theory in retrospect.

As an experiential learner myself, I know all the theory from watching the patterns and relationships unfold over time. I could always read and understand the texts, but lack of context and "time in grade" meant nothing "stuck" while recognizing these same patterns and relationships from an expanding repertoire
firmly fixed these elements of theory for me.

Everyone learns in their own way in the end, some more by study, some more by "hands on". Do both, do whatever it takes...but most importantly, find a way to have fun while you're at it.

[mr. beaumont]

First thing you need to do is stop thinking about chords and scales as two completely different things.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by trueviper

Hi guys, just to expand on my previous thread in which I asked about guitar scales and how I could use them to play Bert Jansch songs because I mistakingly thought that's what Bert did but was then told what he actually did was play chords up and down the neck of the guitar.

Watching Bert play Black Waterside in this video was the reason why I thought Bert was playing a scale, to me he looks like he's playing individual notes which of course he is but within chords and not a scale?

Now this is definitely the type of playing I would eventually like to advance to, I particulary love the end sequence at 3:30. Man that guy could play!



Edit: my link doesn't seem to be working so here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkX7Q2J7k48

Blackwaterside is an old folk tune in mixolydian mode (in F in that video). Bert builds his arrangement by harmonising the melody with partial chords, but also with bass lines.

This is essentially a mode, and while there are identifiable chords here and there (D, C, G) it's all about the procession of intervals, melody, bass line and harmonies working together in a linear fashion. (He plays the vocal melody on the guitar as he is singing.) I.e., you're kind of right: the notes he's playing are "within a scale" and "within chords" - but only partially. Essentially, he merges the two together. (As Jeff says, it's a mistake to think of scale and chords as different things, at least in this case. It's all a bunch notes you make melodies and harmonies from.)

In that sense, a lot of Bert's arrangements are more like classical pieces, with two or three lines moving in counterpoint to one another.

You can find an accurate transcription of this arrangement (guaranteed by yours truly) in this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bert-Transc.../dp/178558555X
The main transcription is the original 1966 version, but the accompanying notes explain the variations he used in this and later versions.

As one of the compilers of that book, obviously I recommend you buy it (!), but pm me and I can send you a transcription of that video version (my favourite of all his recordings of the tune, which each vary a little). There are a few lessons online: none of them is totally accurate, but Rolly Brown gets close (again, this is more like the 1966 than the above video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBqANJTiBc4

[Wyllys]

I can't post pics or charts directly, so let's see if this works.

From the Wiki on Experiential learning:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expe...on_Pyramid.JPG

[trueviper]

Great input as always. Thanks guys.