A Guitar Pick Primer -- Please Participate.

[Don54]

Originally Posted by MChild62

1. Custom-designed picks? My wife recently went to a shoe shop and had her foot measurements taken for some shoes that are being built to her exact size. Given all the labor and amount of personal taste/feel/sound that goes into a preference for a plectrum, is there any market for picks shaped specifically to a person's hand and playing style? Or is it just a case of, there are so many choices out there in size and shape the we all effectively customize on our own through trial and error?

I’ve had the same thoughts. At $25-$35 a pop, trial and error can be very expensive. Fortunately, Bluechip has been very reasonable about allowing me to exchange a pick that isn’t the right size or thickness. I’ve exchanged a pick twice. Once I found the right size, I ordered several. I now have about 6 Bluechip picks. Not all of them are identical. I think that most of the high end pick makers offer a relatively generous exchange policy.

From my experience, most high end pick makers only offer 2 sizes (the teardrop and large triangle). And this probably works well for most players out there. I’ve found that the small triangle (Bluechip’s TP size) is the ideal size. I only know of 2 companies that make this size. Bluechip and EML. So I have multiple from both of them.

As a customer of a high end product, I would expect that the pick would fit me rather than the other way around. In speaking with Scott, the challenge for these companies to offer more than 2 sizes is that it is very costly and time consuming. He’s very busy as it is with offering the 2 sizes at the moment. By the way, Scott is very easy to reach and communication has been 5 stars.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Don Liv

I’ve had the same thoughts. At $25-$35 a pop, trial and error can be very expensive. Fortunately, Bluechip has been very reasonable about allowing me to exchange a pick that isn’t the right size or thickness. I’ve exchanged a pick twice. Once I found the right size, I ordered several. I now have about 6 Bluechip picks. Not all of them are identical. I think that most of the high end pick makers offer a relatively generous exchange policy.

From my experience, most high end pick makers only offer 2 sizes (the teardrop and large triangle). And this probably works well for most players out there. I’ve found that the small triangle (Bluechip’s TP size) is the ideal size. I only know of 2 companies that make this size. Bluechip and EML. So I have multiple from both of them.

As a customer of a high end product, I would expect that the pick would fit me rather than the other way around. In speaking with Scott, the challenge for these companies to offer more than 2 sizes is that it is very costly and time consuming. He’s very busy as it is with offering the 2 sizes at the moment. By the way, Scott is very easy to reach and communication has been 5 stars.

Don, thanks for your post.

The problem of the materials a vendor uses is the real problem. Once you get Vespel cut, it's fairly easy to finish and can be done mostly automated, mostly by machine.

In the case of casein plastic, it is murderously difficult, posting a myriad of problems, which is likely why so few pick makers will even deal with it.

It is considered the "queen" of plastics, and most still view it as the most beautiful plastic in human history. But getting it there is a process that includes about 15 steps. I wish that was an exaggeration. The final buffing and polishing step is very problematic because casein shows the tiniest microscratches you can imagine. I usually put them under a magnifying glass to see what's going on. It also shows all possible uneven spots or "waves" in the surface. Often one will get to the very end, the final polish stage, and see the imperfections and have to toss it into the re-sand bucket and start all over again. That's why almost every casein pick vendor will only give you an "approximate" thickness, give or take about .10 mm. Red Bear, who's the best of the best, labels them just like Fender -- thin, medium, heavy, extra heavy. Casein also shows all possible uneven spots or "waves" in the surface. Often one will get to the very end, the final polish stage, and see the imperfection, you often have to toss it into the re-sand bucket. Oh, what fun.

On the other hand, the end result of a perfectly crafted casein pick? Oh my my, folks, it is simply a glorious plectrum and worth the price of admission. I persist because as a player I love it so much. That has always been my motivation.

More on the history of casein later. But just a bit here. It was officially "discovered" and patented in 1895 in Germany. For more than a century, and even a bit today, it was used to make beautiful costume jewelry. Here is a search on Etsy with more than 600 photos of (mostly) vintage casein bracelets, ear rings, necklaces, etc.

https://www.etsy.com/market/casein

Oh, before I go, for accuracy's sake, a few minor corrections to previous posts. I'm a stickler for facts.

A) In post #63 my good buddy David from Wolfram Slides stated the following:

"Originally Posted by Big*Al View Post
One thing that many overlook is how clean their picks are. Once a pick gets coated with skin oils or other gunk, it gets more slippery. I will almost always wash my hands right before playing and I will occasionally take my picks over to the kitchen sink and wash them with dish detergent. It's surprising how much this helps with pick control. (Hand washing helps with string life too.)
Just... don't ever do this with a casein pick! It will absorb the water and likely warp and distort.

Cheers,
David"

Forgive, Dave, but this is not true. Casein is totally impervious to exposure to water for at least five to ten minutes. And yes, as Big Al states, it can be submerged completely in water and also cleaned with dish soap to remove dirt and oils, etc. I do this literally every day. The most important thing? Be sure to IMMEDIATELY dry it completely and thoroughly so you see no moisture at all on it. Absolutely no deleterious effects. Here in So Cal, where I live, it is so dry, esp in summer, the moisture dries mostly on its own. But short exposure to water, once removed, will not cause any warping or spooning.

B) In post #43 another good buddy of mine, HHP, stated the following: "Most Hense picks I've seen are casein, AKA Alladinite." This is true. However, if you're interested in doing research on casein, be aware that Alladinite is not a scientific name but a marketing name used primarily in the U.S. Different countries and regions call it by different names, sometimes two or three different names in the same country or region. So it's a bit confusing.

So much more to say, but that's it for now.

More to follow. Soooooo pleased to see the participation in this thread.

scott memmer

[steve223]

Great thread... !

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

B) In post #43 another good buddy of mine, HHP, stated the following: "Most Hense picks I've seen are casein, AKA Alladinite." This is true. However, if you're interested in doing research on casein, be aware that Alladinite is not a scientific name but a marketing name used primarily in the U.S. Different countries and regions call it by different names, sometimes two or three different names in the same country or region. So it's a bit confusing.

So much more to say, but that's it for now.

More to follow. Soooooo pleased to see the participation in this thread.

scott memmer

The naming is odd. Casein is the actual protein that is only part of the final formula. Alladinite was a trade name ( I think one of the best material names ever, akin to Unobtainium) used in the US. The Europeans, and most modern suppliers refer to it by the trade name Galalith.

It was used extensively as costume jewelry, most notably by Coco Chanel in the 20's. Often used to make buttons which reminded me of stories of Django Reinhart using a trouser button as a pick.

Has a very musical quality when used in picks and it can be made very thick without huge costs. It shapes and polishes well without being so soft you have to worry about overworking it.

Looked at a lot of picks over the years, but casein/alladinite/galalith made me stop looking. I have casein picks from Charmed Life, John Pearse, Fender, and EML and would be more that happy to play the rest of my life with any of those. Also, 100% of the players I provided with a beveled casein pick continue to use them to this day and most of these guys were "picks don't matter" or "I'm fine with a celluloid medium" up till then.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by HHP

The naming is odd. Casein is the actual protein that is only part of the final formula. Alladinite was a trade name ( I think one of the best material names ever, akin to Unobtainium) used in the US. The Europeans, and most modern suppliers refer to it by the trade name Galalith.

It was used extensively as costume jewelry, most notably by Coco Chanel in the 20's. Often used to make buttons which reminded me of stories of Django Reinhart using a trouser button as a pick.

Has a very musical quality when used in picks and it can be made very thick without huge costs. It shapes and polishes well without being so soft you have to worry about overworking it.

Looked at a lot of picks over the years, but casein/alladinite/galalith made me stop looking. I have casein picks from Charmed Life, John Pearse, Fender, and EML and would be more that happy to play the rest of my life with any of those. Also, 100% of the players I provided with a beveled casein pick continue to use them to this day and most of these guys were "picks don't matter" or "I'm fine with a celluloid medium" up till then.

To add to the confusion, it goes by the name Erinoid in England and the UK, so there you go.

scott memmer

[RussL30]

All this stuff is way over my head, but it’s fascinating to read about.

[Bluegrass Boy]

Originally Posted by HHP

Lots of guitar styles don't get a big benefit from the premium picks. The one that does is playing complex single note leads and runs and crosspicking. Surprisingly few do that. Many can play their whole lives with a .73 celluloid and be perfectly happy.

Also consider, that if you are over 30, the guitar sounds that made you want to play were not made with premium picks. Doc Watson, Clarence White, George Shuffler et al used what was available at the time. They did OK.

Roland White showed me one of Clarence’s tortoise picks that he still hangs on to so we know Clarence played with them.

I’ve played exclusively with tortoise for the past 20 years. I’ve only used one of the new premium picks, blue chip. I didn’t like it much. It feels too slippery. I don’t claim that tortoise is the best but I sure like it.

[Wolfram]

Originally Posted by MChild62

This is a wonderful thread. Incredible how much I took for granted, assuming all plastic or other synthetic material picks were just punched out of sheets of different materials (like the "pick-maker" devices you can buy on eBay to punch pics out of a credit card).


I had no idea about the amount of labor or the costs of materials for high-end picks.

I can certainly say that our biggest cost is labour; although our materials are also expensive (though we don't use Vespel). Some operations are batched but many, especially the careful shaping of the bevel and point, are done by hand. I estimate each Wolfram pick takes an hour to make.

In answer to a couple of your questions from our point of view:

1. Custom-designed picks? My wife recently went to a shoe shop and had her foot measurements taken for some shoes that are being built to her exact size. Given all the labor and amount of personal taste/feel/sound that goes into a preference for a plectrum, is there any market for picks shaped specifically to a person's hand and playing style? Or is it just a case of, there are so many choices out there in size and shape the we all effectively customize on our own through trial and error?

As with many things customised like this, the biggest question is how you actually specify/perfect a shape for a particular person's hand and playing style? Although I only list a small selection of picks for purchase on my website, when I can talk directly with customers (e.g. at guitar shows) I can offer any shape/size/thickness (up to 5mm in some cases!) in acrylic or casein, with/without a bevel, and with/without features such as a pendant hole or drilled grip holes. I can also tune a pick individually between bright and mellow (by shaping the bevel and point). The challenge is how to offer this kind of choice to a wider market in an efficient, navigable and affordable way... a luthier can afford hours of discussions with a customer for a $7,000 guitar; not so much for a $30 pick!

I've been working on something for a while in this space, but we're not quite there yet - and most AGF threads around this subject have not been encouraging to me. The market for premium picks is small; I suspect the market for premium custom picks is going to be much, much smaller. We shall see!

3. Does nano technology and advanced materials development offer anything interesting for the future of pics? Super-thin (but super hard) graphene pics?

Well I used to make a range of solid tungsten carbide (a metal twice as dense as steel and nearly as hard as diamond) picks. The key features were that they were heavy, absolutely rigid (great for control) with picking points polished to a jewellery-quality finish - and would never, ever scratch, dull or wear out due to their hardness. They were obviously not for everyone, but were very well received and we sold out of the first batch. Sadly, due to the huge cost of making them (which has also more than doubled in the last 18 months) they're just not economic and I've not been able to offer a second batch.

I'm already surfing Amazon looking for some of the picks suggested in this thread. Not much available here!

[/QUOTE]

I don't expect you will! You're dealing with a very low volume, handmade product. I personally make every Wolfram pick myself; and I believe Scott and Mick work similarly. The only way we can make this even vaguely economic is to sell direct - even if Amazon were interested in such small quantities, the additional margin they would charge (generally a 100% markup) would make them much more expensive.

Hope that gives some useful insight from Wolfram's side.

Cheers,
David

[Goat Mick]

Originally Posted by Don Liv

From my experience, most high end pick makers only offer 2 sizes (the teardrop and large triangle). And this probably works well for most players out there. I’ve found that the small triangle (Bluechip’s TP size) is the ideal size. I only know of 2 companies that make this size. Bluechip and EML. So I have multiple from both of them.

I discovered the small triangle size before I got into the pick business while experimenting with Primetones. I like the small triangle so much it became my favorite pick size. When I started doing flat picks I came out with a teardrop first and then soon after I brought out a mini triangle because I wanted that shape for personal use. LOL Folks, if you haven't tried a mini triangle pick go grab a pack of Primetones in that size, I really think you'll become addicted to that shape.

Just as an aside to show how personally subjective pick choice is, I've tried a bunch of picks made from casein and I just don't like that material at all. I do know a lot of people I respect a lot that does really like it, but in my hand I just don't care for the tone. Am I right? Only for me. Am I wrong? If you prefer casein picks then I'm wrong to you. It's like guitars, we all have our favorites and our personal preferences but we can all agree that they make beautiful music.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Goat Whiskey Picks

I discovered the small triangle size before I got into the pick business while experimenting with Primetones. I like the small triangle so much it became my favorite pick size. When I started doing flat picks I came out with a teardrop first and then soon after I brought out a mini triangle because I wanted that shape for personal use. LOL Folks, if you haven't tried a mini triangle pick go grab a pack of Primetones in that size, I really think you'll become addicted to that shape.

Just as an aside to show how personally subjective pick choice is, I've tried a bunch of picks made from casein and I just don't like that material at all. I do know a lot of people I respect a lot that does really like it, but in my hand I just don't care for the tone. Am I right? Only for me. Am I wrong? If you prefer casein picks then I'm wrong to you. It's like guitars, we all have our favorites and our personal preferences but we can all agree that they make beautiful music.

I like that shape though I usually modify them into tri-tips. They only make them up to 1.5mm while the teardrop version can be had up to 3.0mm. I wrote to them a while ago and suggested they offer the small triangle in the thicker sizes. I'm sure they'll get right on it.

[hairpuller]

Originally Posted by RedJoker

While I understand your point, its much harder for my guitar to get lost in the couch cushions.

Redjoker is funny.
scott

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Goat Whiskey Picks

I discovered the small triangle size before I got into the pick business while experimenting with Primetones. I like the small triangle so much it became my favorite pick size. When I started doing flat picks I came out with a teardrop first and then soon after I brought out a mini triangle because I wanted that shape for personal use. LOL Folks, if you haven't tried a mini triangle pick go grab a pack of Primetones in that size, I really think you'll become addicted to that shape.

Just as an aside to show how personally subjective pick choice is, I've tried a bunch of picks made from casein and I just don't like that material at all. I do know a lot of people I respect a lot that does really like it, but in my hand I just don't care for the tone. Am I right? Only for me. Am I wrong? If you prefer casein picks then I'm wrong to you. It's like guitars, we all have our favorites and our personal preferences but we can all agree that they make beautiful music.

Hey Mick, would a Blue Chip TP be considered a small triangle, or are we talking about something similar with perhaps slightly pointier corners. I've found rounded corners like that perfect for mandolin, but a little less so for guitar, especially if cross-picking or playing runs.

BTW, folks, my buddy Mick here has discovered a new black material that he loves playing more than anything out there. Check it out. Mick is an excellent guitarist and only plays what he loves. There are a LOT of great materials out there with huge potential that no one has made into picks yet.

memmer

[Goat Mick]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Hey Mick, would a Blue Chip TP be considered a small triangle, or are we talking about something similar with perhaps slightly pointier corners. I've found rounded corners like that perfect for mandolin, but a little less so for guitar, especially if cross-picking or playing runs.

BTW, folks, my buddy Mick here has discovered a new black material that he loves playing more than anything out there. Check it out. Mick is an excellent guitarist and only plays what he loves. There are a LOT of great materials out there with huge potential that no one has made into picks yet.

memmer

They're probably really close. I gave my fabricator a Primetone mini and had him duplicate the size. Here is my triangle beside of a Primetone in the standard triangle size. My pick is an unbeveled blank.

[RussL30]

place to upload pictures

Is this what y’all are calling the large triangle?

I’m thinking about trying this in either 1.4 or 1.5. I have a 1.3 in the grilled teardrop that actually sounds decent flatpicked. Do these large gauges need to be beveled before they sound good?

I have a Clayton Ultem in .94 in this shape that I do not like at all, but I don’t know if it’s the shape or just the pick itself I don’t like.

[Goat Mick]

Originally Posted by RussL30

place to upload pictures

Is this what y’all are calling the large triangle?

I’m thinking about trying this in either 1.4 or 1.5. I have a 1.3 in the grilled teardrop that actually sounds decent flatpicked. Do these large gauges need to be beveled before they sound good?

I have a Clayton Ultem in .94 in this shape that I do not like at all, but I don’t know if it’s the shape or just the pick itself I don’t like.

Hi Russ, I find that any pick 1.0mm or thicker can be improved with a bevel. The Primetone picks come from the factory with a bevel but some say that the bevel can be improved with some fancy sanding on your end. Personally I don't change the bevel on my Primetones but I will bevel any pick that doesn't already have one that's thicker than 1.0mm. It may be the size of the pick you just don't like. I discovered mini triangles a few years ago and that is the size and shape I prefer.