Woods for a baritone?

nobo · #1 07-16-2010, 05:11 AM

Hi,
I'm considering commissioning a custom baritone. The luthier is TBC (am consider Brook, Richard Osborne and others - but still open to suggestions!) - which I appreciate will have the biggest influence on the sound. But thought it might be helpful to get some suggestions for / suggestions as to which wood combos that work. I am getting ahead of myself a bit, since obviously I will take into account the luthier's guidance, but as it's a fairly unusual instrument I'm struggling a little to find UK/European luthiers with a huge amount of experience with different baritone builds of these specs and different materials (A Mustapick would be fantastic, but for the specs I'd want too costly, particularly once shipping to England and import duties and VAT are added.)

The guitar will be for modern fingerstyle (think Andy McKee, Michael Hedges, Bensusan, etc), with low action and very low tunings (potentially CGDGAD and related tunings but down a fourth or fifth, so starting on a G or G# - I appreciate that, down that low, most of the tone on that's going to have to come via the pickups rather that acoustically). I play with a very light touch. It's likely to be a jumbo-ish sized guitar (think Lowden O), but may have a Manzer wedge, arm bevel and sound port and/or a cutaway.

Top wise, given the light touch, I need something responsive, ideally warm but still clear. I'm guessing cedar would be too mushy on tunings that low, so was thinking redwood or European/Lutz/Englemann spruce.

As for the back and sides, I'm unsure. I'm not usually a huge rosewood fan - it tends to sound too scooped in the mids for my taste, and sometimes a little bright/peircing in the trebles. Cocobolo sounds warmer with more to the mids, from the limited experience I have of it. Something a bit warmer or woodier would appeal. But my concern with heavier woods is that it might get mushy/indistinct - particularly given the large body size. Any thoughts on ovangkol, walnut, bubinga or anything else? I am currently using a hog/spruce Lowden O strung as a baritone and it doesn't quite give the tone I'm after (not suprising, given that it's not designed as a baritone!) - but I suspect the mahogany is a fraction too try sounding and doesn't do the low end quite as much justice as it might.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Nobo

SteveS · #2 07-16-2010, 09:09 AM

Nobo,
I'm not a big fan of using rosewoods or mahogany for baritones. I like woods like walnut, myrtle, white oak, koa and bubinga. I don't think you want woods with a lot of higher frequency response because of the lower pitch of the instrument. Because of this, I think using one of these woods for the top is also more acceptable than a standard scale length - all walnut or all koa baritone.
If you want to stick with a soft wood for the top, I think Adi or Lutz is great, along with other spruces. I love cedar and redwood for guitars, but for a baritone I prefer Adi or Lutz. I'm not sure why and I'm rather startled by that.

westcountry1 · #3 07-16-2010, 09:18 AM

Nick Benjamin has made a few baritones and has just completed a guitar for me in bastogne walnut and redwood I would think this wood combo would make a pretty tasty baritone,Lowden use sitka and walnut for their baritone.Prehaps cuban mahogany might be an option as I have heard it is more complex than most mahogany.My personal favourite baritone was made by Marc Beneteau in brazilian and adirondack incredible sounding guitar.

Coke_zero · #4 07-16-2010, 09:53 AM

+1 on Nick Benjamins work. I played a few of his guitars recently and they were excellent. Any pictures Westcounty?

nobo · #5 07-16-2010, 10:10 AM

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I've not played any myrtle or white oak guitars. I do love my walnut/cedar McIlroy A25cs, but I'm guessing that'd be a bit too dark sounding on a bari, hence thinking a warm sounding spruce would be a good idea for the top. Lowden use claro and sitka.

I should probably add that I'm a sucker for good looking wood, find it hard to get very excited about most of the mahogany and planer woods I've seen. There's some wild walnut out there though!

Sadly cost is a consideration, so I suspect koa is out since it seems to be hard to find good looking koa on a budget.

Must say a Benjamin is tempting, but likely to be beyond my means plus I'm too impatient to wait (his list is pretty long!). Richard Osborne works in the same building as Nick - seems like a very nice guy. I've not played his guitars yet, but if they're good enough for Lee Westwood (not the golfer), that's promising!

Brackett Instruments · #6 07-16-2010, 10:46 AM

I'd recommend deciding on the builder, then deciding the woods, with advice from the builder (and others). I haven't built a baritone so I have no wood advice.

westcountry1 · #7 07-16-2010, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coke_zero

+1 on Nick Benjamins work. I played a few of his guitars recently and they were excellent. Any pictures Westcounty?

Hi I will be adding some pictures to my Nick Benjamin Midi Jumbo build thread.

Ruble · #8 07-16-2010, 05:17 PM

I have had two baritones... I heartily recommend Wenge for the back and sides and some variety of Spruce for the Top.

Those are really low tunings... You are going to have to fight to keep from getting really muddy.

Chris

Larry Pattis · #9 07-16-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody b

I'd recommend deciding on the builder, then deciding the woods, with advice from the builder.

Yes to this.

Choose a builder, and go with the woods he/she recommends.

JohnM · #10 07-16-2010, 07:49 PM

You say you're still open to suggestions for the builder. I'd suggest you at least take a gander at Matt Mustapick. He builds some cool modern styled instruments. Very nice work, and a good guy too.

SteveS · #11 07-16-2010, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnM

....... I'd suggest you at least take a gander at Matt Mustapick..........

I agree with John!

Brackett Instruments · #12 07-17-2010, 05:17 AM

Steve S builds a super nice Bartione. I'd definately have him on your list.

http://saville_guitars.webs.com/baritone.htm

nobo · #13 07-19-2010, 03:06 AM

Whilst I've not played any of his guitars, from what I've heard and from the looks and design philosophy, Matt Mustapick is currently at the top of my list. Sadly it'd be too much of a stretch financially for a soundported, wedge, arm bevel, fan fretty Mustapick baritone beauty, which is a real shame. Being in the UK, I'd also need to add on top of that shipping costs, duty and 20% VAT (since it wouldn't be ready til next year).

The Saville guitar baritones look great, but - because of the import costs - I think I'm going to have to stick with a UK or European builder.

I've not played any wenge guitars - isn't it broadly tonally similar to rosewood (though not of the same family)?

Reports of ovangkol are intriguing - my guess is that, pared with an Engleman/Lutz/Italian top and in the right hands, it'd make a decent baritone.

Ruble · #14 07-19-2010, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nobo

I've not played any wenge guitars - isn't it broadly tonally similar to rosewood (though not of the same family)?

The Wenge guitar I have is tonally very different than Rosewood. It has much more of the airy Mahogany sound than the crystalline Rosewood sound. I recommend it for you specifically because it is LOUD... You want to go so low you will need all the projection you can get.

On a side note... Both the baritones I have owned were built by Matt Mustapick. He builds a great modern finger style guitar. I believe there is a used Mahogany baritone of his at a shop in CA (Sylvan Music I think...) you would do very well to consider that guitar.

Chris

gstreet · #15 07-19-2010, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruble

The Wenge guitar I have is tonally very different than Rosewood. It has much more of the airy Mahogany sound than the crystalline Rosewood sound. I recommend it for you specifically because it is LOUD... You want to go so low you will need all the projection you can get.

On a side note... Both the baritones I have owned were built by Matt Mustapick. He builds a great modern finger style guitar. I believe there is a used Mahogany baritone of his at a shop in CA (Sylvan Music I think...) you would do very well to consider that guitar.

Chris

I don't believe the Mahogany Baritone at Sylvan's is used - they are advertising it as new. See http://www.sylvanmusic.com/inventory...ustic Guitars#. It's a beautiful guitar, it just doesn't have all the bells & whistles that nobo is after.

No affiliation with Sylvan's - I just like this guitar which is why I asked Matt to build a baritone for me!

Cheers,
Carl