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  #16  
Old 06-01-2020, 06:27 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I imagine you've heard this before, but here's an example of what treatment did in my garage. I recorded something in the same spot before and after. The first pass is a mono recording, 1 mic, 18 inches away before treatment, empty garage. 2nd is same spot, etc, after treatment. 3rd pass is stereo mics, moved up to 8 inches from the guitar, after treatment.

That should be enough to convince anyone of the importance of room treatment.
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  #17  
Old 06-02-2020, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
That should be enough to convince anyone of the importance of room treatment.
Demonstrates exactly what the "difference clarity" thread was about
And arguably worth $5k -$8k of mic, pre, and interface upgrades


BTW simple H shaped with feet, wood stands , are easy and cheap to make so Absorption panels can moveable and positioned like the booth TB was speaking about. And more like the Gobos, Brent mentioned.
I'll snap some quick photos of the ones I made and post them shortly

Here are the ones I made out of scrap Alder but they could easily be made out of 1X4 pine



The panel sits on the horizontal piece (just below knot in photo) and I just use 2 inch Gold grabber screws that go through the stand into the 1X4 pine frame of the panel so the 4 ft hight of panel sits centered at about the level of my guitar while standing

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Last edited by KevWind; 06-02-2020 at 07:34 AM.
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  #18  
Old 06-02-2020, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Demonstrates exactly what the "difference clarity" thread was about
And arguably worth $5k -$8k of mic, pre, and interface upgrades
I don't actually recall what the signal chain was on those. The mics were Neumann TLM103s. But this was a long time back, so no idea what the rest was - possibly a Masterlink hard disk recorder, probably about equivalent to a Zoom recorder these days. I don't think the gear plays much of a role here, you'd hear the same effect if I'd recorded the before/after on phone (which I don't think was possible back when this was captured!).

The part of room acoustics that gets confusing is that you can get lucky and not necessarily need treatment - what we need is for acceptable acoustics. I record my You Tube videos with a Zoom H6 in an untreated room, and that works well enough for You Tube. But most rooms need help, and my bare concrete-floor was a good example of a very bad case.
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  #19  
Old 06-02-2020, 11:42 AM
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I'm not doubting the expert advice here (I am an amateur at best) but didn't the engineer on Leo Kottke's "6 and 12 String Guitar" surround Leo with 4 heavy curtains in a box formation for the recording?
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  #20  
Old 06-02-2020, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by J-Doug View Post
I'm not doubting the expert advice here (I am an amateur at best) but didn't the engineer on Leo Kottke's "6 and 12 String Guitar" surround Leo with 4 heavy curtains in a box formation for the recording?
It's possible but does not discount what is being said here . If curtains were used, it was likely in addition to a room that was already acoustically treated for bass and broad band absorption. Blankets, foam and heavy curtains, can help with zingy high frequencies, but do not do much for mid and lows
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  #21  
Old 06-02-2020, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
It's possible but does not discount what is being said here . If curtains were used, it was likely in addition to a room that was already acoustically treated for bass and broad band absorption. Blankets, foam and heavy curtains, can help with zingy high frequencies, but do not do much for mid and lows
This is the info I have, to quote Leo:

"It was recorded at Empire Photo-Sound [in Minneapolis]. there was no studio; they hung up some sheets in a warehouse. I played inside the sheets."

From: http://www.guitarmusic.org/kottke/gtlka3.html

I seem to remember reading that they were more like curtains but that's probably just my memory.
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  #22  
Old 06-02-2020, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Doug View Post
This is the info I have, to quote Leo:

"It was recorded at Empire Photo-Sound [in Minneapolis]. there was no studio; they hung up some sheets in a warehouse. I played inside the sheets."
The size of the space makes a difference too. If you're in a small room, with sound bouncing around and back to you quickly, a few sheets (or blankets) may not help nearly as much. In a large warehouse, where reflections have time to dissipate, some curtains or something may be just enough.
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  #23  
Old 06-02-2020, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I imagine you've heard this before, but here's an example of what treatment did in my garage. I recorded something in the same spot before and after. The first pass is a mono recording, 1 mic, 18 inches away before treatment, empty garage. 2nd is same spot, etc, after treatment. 3rd pass is stereo mics, moved up to 8 inches from the guitar, after treatment.



BTW, Room EQ Wizard (REW) is free software that will help you measure your room and both help you know what you need, and help you quantify how well whatever you do is. So you can use it to see of blankets help, etc.
Thats a strong case if ever I heard one!

I am in the process of making 5 60x60x10cm broadband panels..
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  #24  
Old 06-02-2020, 12:24 PM
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Recording is complex, and there's no absolutes, it's an art. Lots of old (and new...) recordings were made in less than scientifically perfect rooms - look at the old Motown studios. But what you do is listen to what you have, and then do what you need to do to get it to sound good. (using measurement software can speed up the process, but you can also just try things) You could be lucky and have a decent sounding room to start with. You could have a room that really only needs some sheets or blankets hung. It all depends. What worked in some studio somewhere may or may not work for Barry's garage.
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2020, 01:23 PM
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Moving blankets are not much use as an acoustic treatment. Owens Corning 703 is the better way to go. And by the way, moving blankets are often heavily treated with pesticides. If you're chemically sensitive they can cause respiratory irritation.

While I agree with Doug that whatever works and sounds good is perfectly OK there is nothing like recording a great room!
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  #26  
Old 06-02-2020, 01:52 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Doug View Post
"It was recorded at Empire Photo-Sound [in Minneapolis]. there was no studio; they hung up some sheets in a warehouse. I played inside the sheets."
The talent show up to record. It's possible that what Leo remembers may not be an accurate description of what was in the space. But as has been pointed out already, larger spaces are often less problematic than smaller spaces where sound doesn't have as much distance to dissipate before coming back around and hitting the microphone.
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
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  #27  
Old 06-02-2020, 02:59 PM
paulp1960 paulp1960 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
That should be enough to convince anyone of the importance of room treatment.
It certainly convinced me. Thanks Doug for going to the trouble to make the demo. I record in an untreated room and I suppose I just put up with it as I'm more concerned to record the music knowing I'll never sound like a pro.
But it's even got me thinking I need to get some of those gobo panels.
If I were Barry I wouldn't hesitate if his goal is to get the best possible recorded sound. It really is a no brainer. Great thread.
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  #28  
Old 06-02-2020, 03:38 PM
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So this would be good to make a gobo with?

https://www.atsacoustics.com/item--O...f-6--1004.html
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  #29  
Old 06-02-2020, 03:53 PM
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Room dimensions are also very important. Around 1980 produced a recording session at the legendary old National Edison studio in NYC. It's a large room. The engineer could raise or lower the entire ceiling of the studio so as to tune the room. If cost is no object that's the way to roll!

OTOH most of us are using a spare room, a garage, an attic etc. and doing the best we can with bad room dimensions. When I began recording at home I spent thousands on gear but I kept getting lousy recordings until I spent about 1200 on RealTraps. I only bought 4 panels and they are free standing so that I can move them around. They get the job done. You can make your own pretty cheap but I was laid up sick at the time so I bought mine ready made.

If I had started my home studio journey with the room treatment I would have saved a ton of money and time. It's the first thing I should have done.

I'm not sure there is a perfect holy grail microphone for every voice but there are some rooms that are magic. I was blessed to work in a few. My fave studio memory was hanging out with Phil Spector's engineer during a surf band demo session at Gold Star. What a sound! He had some great stories
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  #30  
Old 06-02-2020, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
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So this would be good to make a gobo with?

https://www.atsacoustics.com/item--O...f-6--1004.html
Yes. Just keep in mind that it's nasty stuff to work with. Gloves, and a good filtered mask are essential
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