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  #1  
Old 04-19-2021, 07:23 PM
tired fingers tired fingers is offline
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Default Center seam opening

Anybody having trouble with the center seam on recent Martin guitars opening up? (or other brands?) My luthier thinks it may be wood not seasoned well enough to keep up with production in the Covid boom. Maybe manufacturers will have to follow the practice of violin makers in the past and torrify everything?

The guitar in question is kept in it's case with two Humidipacks. But if you're going to play a guitar it has to be out of the case some of the time. Any feedback from others with this experience is appreciated.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:53 AM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Extremely unlikely that the wood was not dried correctly prior to building, main stream manufacturers have huge money invested in wood prep and storage areas.

Guitars split on join lines typically when exposed to varying weather conditions

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Old 04-20-2021, 06:23 AM
redir redir is offline
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I would guess that Martin has a few years supply of wood ahead of what they are currently building at any time. If you are being honest and you keep the guitar humidified correctly and didn't for example forget about that time you took the guitar camping in the desert? Then it could just be some bad luck. If it's new to you then you can probably have it fixed.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:32 AM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tired fingers View Post
Anybody having trouble with the center seam on recent Martin guitars opening up? (or other brands?) My luthier thinks it may be wood not seasoned well enough to keep up with production in the Covid boom. Maybe manufacturers will have to follow the practice of violin makers in the past and torrify everything?

The guitar in question is kept in it's case with two Humidipacks. But if you're going to play a guitar it has to be out of the case some of the time. Any feedback from others with this experience is appreciated.
I'd say your luthier should guess less.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:47 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tired fingers View Post
My luthier thinks it may be wood not seasoned well enough to keep up with production in the Covid boom. Maybe manufacturers will have to follow the practice of violin makers in the past and torrify everything?
I'm not aware of traditional violin makers using wood that has undergone torrefaction.

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Originally Posted by runamuck View Post
I'd say your luthier should guess less.
Agreed.

"Drying" is a different process that "seasoning". Drying reduces the moisture content in wood from "green" to a suitable equilibrium moisture content, typically about 6 to 8% for many woodworking applications. Wood needs to be at an appropriate equilibrium moisture content for longevity of things made of wood. The drying process can be relatively short, if a kiln is used. If air-dried, as much of instrument-making wood is, it will take as long as a few years from green to ready-to-use.

The usual cause of a guitar top to crack is shrinkage of the guitar top. The usual cause for shrinkage is reduced moisture content - becoming drier than the humidity at which it was made. Simply throwing two Humidipacks in a case might not provide sufficient moisture control. Having your guitar top crack/separate is one indicator that it is not. If you don't already have one, purchase an inexpensive hygrometer so that you know what the actual humidity level is. You can then compare that to recommended humidity levels for that instrument.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:49 AM
jklotz jklotz is offline
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A few years back, I bought a new HD 28. Took it home, played it for a week in my humidified guitar room, and the center s seam separated. I took it back to the dealer, who agreed it was a defective guitar. They took it back and got me a new guitar.
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Old 04-20-2021, 12:05 PM
printer2 printer2 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
I'm not aware of traditional violin makers using wood that has undergone torrefaction.



Agreed.

"Drying" is a different process that "seasoning". Drying reduces the moisture content in wood from "green" to a suitable equilibrium moisture content, typically about 6 to 8% for many woodworking applications. Wood needs to be at an appropriate equilibrium moisture content for longevity of things made of wood. The drying process can be relatively short, if a kiln is used. If air-dried, as much of instrument-making wood is, it will take as long as a few years from green to ready-to-use.

The usual cause of a guitar top to crack is shrinkage of the guitar top. The usual cause for shrinkage is reduced moisture content - becoming drier than the humidity at which it was made. Simply throwing two Humidipacks in a case might not provide sufficient moisture control. Having your guitar top crack/separate is one indicator that it is not. If you don't already have one, purchase an inexpensive hygrometer so that you know what the actual humidity level is. You can then compare that to recommended humidity levels for that instrument.
Don Noon was doing it in 2000,

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.p...fied-tonewood/

Some inaccurate information though.
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Old 04-20-2021, 12:39 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
Don Noon was doing it in 2000,
By "traditional", I meant 1700's era.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2021, 03:45 PM
tired fingers tired fingers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
I'm not aware of traditional violin makers using wood that has undergone torrefaction.



Agreed.

"Drying" is a different process that "seasoning". Drying reduces the moisture content in wood from "green" to a suitable equilibrium moisture content, typically about 6 to 8% for many woodworking applications. Wood needs to be at an appropriate equilibrium moisture content for longevity of things made of wood. The drying process can be relatively short, if a kiln is used. If air-dried, as much of instrument-making wood is, it will take as long as a few years from green to ready-to-use.

The usual cause of a guitar top to crack is shrinkage of the guitar top. The usual cause for shrinkage is reduced moisture content - becoming drier than the humidity at which it was made. Simply throwing two Humidipacks in a case might not provide sufficient moisture control. Having your guitar top crack/separate is one indicator that it is not. If you don't already have one, purchase an inexpensive hygrometer so that you know what the actual humidity level is. You can then compare that to recommended humidity levels for that instrument.
Observation is not necessarily followed by guessing; 35 years as a GAL luthier.

Anyway, the French did it quite a bit with mixed results; some baking, some chemistry.

Not trying to do anything but inquire. The "drying" seasoning - semantics. Normal care (with hygrometer as a guide) Normal use - they have to come out of the case sometime to be played. I tried 24/7 misting (that's a joke, by the way) -- come on, we live in the world not a lab.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:53 PM
tired fingers tired fingers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
A few years back, I bought a new HD 28. Took it home, played it for a week in my humidified guitar room, and the center s seam separated. I took it back to the dealer, who agreed it was a defective guitar. They took it back and got me a new guitar.
It does happen; it is not always predictable. Manufacturers do stumble -- God forbid.

Bad luck may be the best explanation, but I'm asking the question to get information, not flippant assumptions. I appreciate the fact that your response was neutral and informing. Thanks
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Old 04-20-2021, 04:37 PM
Carey Carey is offline
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> I'm not aware of traditional violin makers using wood that has undergone torrefaction. <

There's at least one; he posts regularly over at MN. Seems like quite a sharp guy.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:58 AM
tadol tadol is offline
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I don’t think that the use of torrefied material qualifies as truly “traditional” violin making. You can build using traditional techniques, as many have done using non-traditional materials, and non-traditional designs, and non-traditional technology, but I don’t feel that truly qualifies as traditional violin making.

But back to OP - center seam opening is a real problem because that joint, between the top plates, is incredibly thin and relies on just that tiny band of glue to stay together. Any contamination of those edges, or a problem with the glue, or a failure to get a perfect straight join, or inadequate clamping, can all lead to a failure of that joint even without dealing with humidification or improper bracing or accidental impact.

Luckily, its also usually a simple repair that can be done nearly invisibly, as long as its addressed quickly and before any dirt or contaminants can get into the joint. Reinforcements can also be added behind the joint to give it a little extra strength.

This is one of the reasons players will say a really great guitar is one that skirts the edge of failure - making all the parts as thin & light as possible, yet still strong enough to withstand the forces of tuning it up and playing.
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2021, 08:36 AM
tired fingers tired fingers is offline
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Default center seam opening

Thanks, Tadol -- just got the guitar back yesterday. Will proceed to try and resolve the issue with local help. None available from Martin or the dealer. It will not stay around my space much longer regardless. It just ticks me off every time I am reminded, and that merely does me harm to no purpose. It will probably end up donated after whatever remedy is chosen by folks here. Whoever gets it will know about the issue and that it may reoccur -- but also know that it's a free guitar. My wife and I often donate a guitar or two each year, so this will be one for 2020. Irony.
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2021, 06:12 PM
RonMay RonMay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tired fingers View Post
Anybody having trouble with the center seam on recent Martin guitars opening up? (or other brands?) My luthier thinks it may be wood not seasoned well enough to keep up with production in the Covid boom. Maybe manufacturers will have to follow the practice of violin makers in the past and torrify everything?

The guitar in question is kept in it's case with two Humidipacks. But if you're going to play a guitar it has to be out of the case some of the time. Any feedback from others with this experience is appreciated.
I feel like the problem is not moisture in the wood, which is not to be confused with humidity.

When the guitar was built, it had the lowest moisture it will ever have and since it's birthday, it's been soaking up moisture.

DON'T OVER HUMIDIFY YOUR GUITAR.
That can do as much or more damage to a guitar than not humidifying it at all.

Quick temperature change is also a danger going like from cold outside to a hot inside environment.

Humidity is not the problem.
I know that is heresy but it's the truth as I see it.

Ron
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2021, 06:43 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tired fingers View Post
Bad luck may be the best explanation, but I'm asking the question to get information, not flippant assumptions.
There is the problem in a nut shell, we can only make assumptions on the cause without physically seeing the instrument.

The manufacturer has declined warranty on it, the store has declined warranty on it, we have suggested its an issue related to humidity, this is best assumption given the facts you have supplied

Steve
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