What is your approach to commissioning a guitar?

[Rwpierce]

Originally Posted by jt1

Paul, thanks.



The guitar has a back story. One day while visiting his workshop, I asked Kim Walker what happened to woods that were visually challenged but sonically superb. His customers, who at that point had created a 9-year wait list (he shortly thereafter ceased taking orders) wouldn't accept the visually challenged woods, of course. So I asked that each time he came across such a piece of wood, he toss it into a pile. When the pile contained enough pieces to built a guitar, I asked that he make me a black guitar.



Well, the guitar would be completed around the point when Kim would have been building instruments for 33 years. So, I hatched the idea of a 1/3 Century of Progress, playing on the Gibson Century of Progress instruments the company produced for the 1933 Century of Progress International Exposition. Kim had some original 1930s Italian MOTS in the shop, just enough to produce a headstock inspired by those Gibsons.



Having a blank, black canvass, Kim and I could not resist playing homage to our favorite periods of art. That binding was the last bit of original 1950s Rickenbacker binding left on the planet.



Anyway, to make a long story longer, the guitar and story did a star turn in Fretboard Journal:







And, the guitar got a one-of-a-kind serial number:

Really cool story and guitar JT. Thanks for posting. Being one of Kim’s builds I know for a fact that it sounds fantastic .

[Tim Porter]

Perhaps as a segue back to the topic, I was lucky to be on the Walker list and due for a guitar about that time and met John at Kim's shop at least one time. I eventually wound up with an amazing OM-42 from Kim, along with two others I picked up over the years on the market.

BUT, in commissioning guitars, what I've sought is luthiers who have definite points of view about what they want to build, and who have built a LOT of guitars. Whether it's Martinesque OMs, unique small jumbos, or even Kim Walker's guitars, I look for luthiers who have long experience and are not looking to be all things to all people just to sell an instrument.

I think you're kind of wasting some time if you don't have a frame of reference for a custom guitar that you want to have someone build for you, and I'm focusing on the tone and musical aspects, not the aesthetic aspects that some folks seem to prize. I'm sure it's the case for many, but the Martinesque guitars, especially OMs, were my first frame of reference, and I have put a lot of thought into the OM type of guitar.

At a certain point though, mostly because I was picking up music from the Celtic world and musicians like Martin Simpson, I decided to branch out to small jumbos with slightly longer scale lengths. I became a real fanboy of Stefan Sobell's guitars and now have four of them (with a fifth to come, stay tuned). They're just wonderful; I call them the "anti-Martin", but in the best possible way. Stefan has a very definite point of view of how a guitar should sound, and it makes a wonderful counterpoint to the Martin OM world.

A bit over a year or so back, I commissioned Bruce Sexauer to make me TWO guitars, back to back, and I view it as the ultimate reflection of how I think about guitars at this point. The first is a super koa OM Schoenberg that reflects Bruce's long experience building Martin-like OMs. The second was intended to explore Bruce's skills when not constrained by the Martin history. It's a rosewood cutaway guitar with a longer scale, a wedge, fan frets--the whole suite of interesting innovations that have come to the fore more recently. They're both wonderful guitars by a master luthier, but I would not have been interested if I did not want to obtain guitars that reflect a master's hard-earned point of view.

Okay, JT, back to the fun part of the program!

[jt1]

Originally Posted by Tim Porter

Okay, JT, back to the fun part of the program!

Tim,

Great points, as always.

When the zombies recede, we need to meet up again. Well, at least I need to play your Sobells.

[Tim Porter]

JT, most definitely.

[colins]

Hey mods...can we put a sticky on this thread so it is up the top of the Custom page? It will immortalise Juston I know, but he's probably earned it and the thread has other benefits as well

It has some great information; I have already cross-referenced it onto two other threads that had an interest in custom builds.

Just a thought.

[Vaillant75]

I would second that.

[riorider]

Similar to Jayne and others - I've developed over the last 14 years in my interactions with luthiers for custom builds. And some of them had their own "process" - one with a 3 page questionnaire, one with a spreadsheet, most with interviews either directly (usually shows, for me) or over the phone, or face to face.

Having been bilked a couple of times (one with a luthier who stopped delivering everything and I couldn't risk sending more money; one who lied about circumstances and I lost money donated but not for a guitar; and one whose life fell apart -- but he did deliver a spectacular guitar a year afterwards) I'm more cautious about luthier's business and personal credibility. There are lots of great builders - and this is an artists realm more than an industrial realm, and I get that a single builder is much more subject to the vagaries of life and schedules. But I still do a lot of checking...

Anyway, I've gone from "knowing" what I wanted (ignorant) to almost the skeletal instructions mentioned by those with the same maturing of commissioning... I know from trying what the luthier's general tone family will be -- and I see the fit and finish on lots of examples before deciding on a commission (with the exception of newer / unknown builders... I'm willing to risk some unknowns for the lower price that newer builders may charge to get their name out there...).

I've not been disappointed - although I've bought and sold quite a few over the past 16 years (including customs and one-off show guitars). But - I'm more a casual player, not close to a pro - so my interest is in the high quality of the guitar, not in what I can do with it. I'm still going to play my simple picking John Denver tunes and country and folk songs, rarely for others -- so for me the enjoyment is in the accumulation of top instruments even if I don't play well enough to "deserve" them. I play ok for me. And I save up - not a trust fund baby - as long as it takes. But that's resulted in 8-11 custom builds (the variance is in my 3 custom electrics which I really didn't know what needed to be spec'd and let the builder tell me). The rest have been very, very nice acoustics, mostly mahogany, including 4 of "the tree". At the time, that was the goal - have a guitar built from the rarest of "unobtanium" possible. My "twin" Baraniks are examples - a sequential set of "tree" mahogany on the OO and OM; the OO with "Lucky Strike" redwood and the OM with Colorado Blue Spruce. The details I left to Mike - other than "inspired by Arts and Crafts" motifs.

Tonally - the request was for the strong fundamentals and limited overtones of mahogany. I play through some pretty crappy PA systems and anything "bloomy" sounds like mud. The mahogany's rich but clear cut through that. I'm only now in the wait queue for a rosewood OO from Mike -- and even with that it was a somewhat unique set of Kingwood (dalbergia variant) and an Adi top that is the 'sister' of the Parlour's (see link in my sig).

If I were to offer advice, then, it would be to visit the shows, see and play the guitars offered by the luthiers, and if you don't find one that is already perfect to discuss a build. Get a feel for the builder's business and personal behavior. Communication is where most builders fall short - but if you have some confidence that they haven't run off to British Columbia with your deposit then it's a bit trust and stretch... (some builders are very good about this, by the way - I'll mention Tim McKnight as a shining example of ethics (although there are many others as well) --- Tim puts your deposit into a personal "escrow" account so if he's unable to complete it for any reason you'll get your money back).

Once you decide on a builder, you can discuss tone and other aesthetics, including playability. I have small hands, so I like to have several examples for the luthier to use as "templates" for what I like.

Cost, delivery, expectations, etc. need to be discussed. Some luthiers will take a deposit to reserve the build of say 30%; another 30% when they start and the final payment when they're complete. Others require more or less along the way. Some will allow an "acceptance" period, with some penalty for return; others will not. Better be sure what you are agreeing to.

The selection of woods is a fun part of the journey - but you will rarely go wrong with a good builder by letting them choose or at least recommend. They know their stock, and build requirements, and that may drive the choices.

Nut width, saddle width, scale length are playability (and tuning) decisions.
Custom buttons and purfling and bindings and inlays - all are great fun decisions but are not important to the tone and playability.

Make yourself a list of what's most important. Talk to lots of guitar playing friends as well as luthiers. And be prepared for a bit of a wait.... !!

Cheers,
Phil

[cigarfan]

Well said Phil. Spot on! Couldn't agree more.

One day (hopefully) we will meet in person at a McJam or something. I look forward to it!

[Bill R]

I agree with what several others have noted. This is a great thread with lots of very useful information. I'll add my 2 cents here - well maybe a bit more

I have never played professionally, though I did play in worship groups in various churches for over 25 years. My playing ability is far outstripped by the quality of the guitars I have owned and currently own. However, I am blessed with adequate financial resources to be able to acquire really nice acoustic guitars. This of course has totally spoiled me, and I now have a very discriminating ear for acoustic guitars in terms of tone and playability. I am not a collector and have never had more than 3 acoustics at one time. My playing is eclectic - lots of finger style (I love Leo Kottke songs), some John Prine singer songwriter material, you get the idea. So I like a guitar that's a jack of all trades so-to-speak.

My first really good guitar was a Martin D-28 I got in college. Then I got a D12-28 which I played for 20+ years. I had a short encounter with a Collings before discovering Taylor guitars. I gave my 1995 612c to my son and still have a 2002 custom Taylor GA 12-string. When Taylor started their R Taylor line, I tried a couple. They were really good guitars and played like butter, but just not quite the right tone my ears were looking for.

In search of my ideal sound, I spent quite a bit of time on-line investigating luthiers, their philosophies on building and what they were trying to accomplish with their craft. I can't remember how, but I somehow settled on John Greven as a possibility. I was intrigued by his mission statement found on his webpage: "My goal is a simple one; build the best sounding, easiest playing, most powerful guitars on the planet. ... My guitars are “modern” where modern adds to the function without impacting tone, but the feel and sound is every bit “vintage”." I also learned that he had been building guitars by hand for over 40 years and had personally built over 2000 guitars. He was at the top of his game at this point.

I arranged a visit with John and during a trip out west to visit my kids, I stopped in Portland where he lives and works out of his basement. I spent several hours with him in his shop learning about his building methods and got to play his personal OOO and a few others guitars he had recently completed but not yet shipped. There was the tone I was looking for. I simply asked him to build a guitar that sounded like his personal OOO which is a blend of vintage 1930's Martin and more modern sounds. We went through his stash of Brazilian RW, and I selected a lovely set. We discussed details on the build over the next few weeks. He was very amenable to and flexible with what I wanted and offered his suggestions on some of the finer points of the build. Once the details were worked out, we agreed on a price and he drafted an invoice. It couldn't have been easier. I picked up the guitar later that year at the 2013 Healdsburg guitar festival in Santa Rosa. It was beyond what I thought it would be. I was a happy camper. A couple of years later, I contacted John requesting that he reshape the neck a bit and narrow the nut width a shade. He was happy to do the work at a reasonable cost, and now the guitar plays better than ever.

One of the things I liked about working with John is that he doesn't charge extra for lots of things many other builders to, such as a custom neck carve, type of binding material, soundboard wood or even a custom headstock shape I wanted. While he has several "models" he advertises, he describes them as starting points for what the customer has in mind. Basically everything is customized and included in a base price except for very rare back and side woods (like Brazilian), cutaways and special inlays and engraving (i.e. ornamentation). Even upgrading to the Brazilian was a very modest increase in price by most standards. I prefer rather plain guitars without much ornamentation which also kept the price reasonable.

While a OOO is not a large guitar, as I get older, I find I would like a smaller body guitar for couch playing, etc. My first thought was to go back to John Greven for one of his OO 12-fret guitars. No reason to assume he won't build me another stellar guitar. I'm in the process of working with him on this build. Stay tuned on the Custom page as I am hoping to start a build thread on this guitar.

Best wishes - stay safe and healthy,

Bill

[Jimmy Caldwell]

Bill,

Congratulations on your second Greven. You’ve chosen wisely...but you know that. John is one of a kind. I’m looking forward to your build pics.

[vanceen]

I've commissioned two guitars, the latest being the magnificent LS redwood / ziricote OM that Steve Kinnaird made for me, and that has a build thread in this forum. The other is a Campellone Special archtop. Both guitars are wonderful, and the process was highly enjoyable, especially with Steve.

But I don't expect to commission any more guitars. For one thing I'm 67, and at this point it's starting to make less and less sense to wait the best part of a year to get a guitar. I guess if I was a collector it would be different, but I'm not. I have lots of guitars, acoustic and electric (the fact that I don't know how many of them I have might be an indication of something), but every single one of them fills a clear functional niche. I'm not really happy keeping any guitar that doesn't get used. I'm not criticizing collectors, it's just not me.

With the lineup I have now (prominently including two of Steve Kinnaird's pre-built guitars as well as the one I commissioned with him), I'm looking to thin out the herd. And if I add any more, which I don't anticipate doing, I'll probably look for a high quality custom guitar with a few years on it. I can't be waiting for spruce to age or for a build to finish.

Of course, I might change my mind, but that's my take at the moment.