First streaming attempt

[El Conquistador]

Here is an excellent tutorial on how to set up your Zoom account for live music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkG7yOTRIAk


Steve

[buzzardwhiskey]

Our church offered a "make your audio sound its best" Zoom conference this morning and I was able to sit in on the setup of seven performers.

This video gets you all the way there if you have a audio interface and a mic (or two).

But if you're using the mic built into your computer, your vocals will be "optimised" and everything else is a big maybe.

[El Conquistador]

We tried our first guitar circle last night, so, here is my report.

The Zoom tweaks contained in the linked video from my last post worked VERY well. And, since I didn't have time to procure all the hardware detailed in this thread, I was able to get a Samson Meteor USB mic, https://www.amazon.com/Samson-Meteor.../dp/B004MF39YS

so I just plugged that in.

Once we got everyone online and their Zoom settings done, it souned pretty good. But, I sounded very good. Everyone was impressed with both my voice and my acoustic guitar being played into the Meteor mic. As a result, the other 3 guys have all ordered the Metor mic.

We did have 2 problems that kept it from being what we really wanted.

1. As long as only 1 person was singing and playing, things sounded very good, me especially. But, as soon as someone tried to add some fill, or worse, tried to add vocal harmony, Zoom could not handle the additional sound sources.

2. There was a small latency that compounded problem #1.

To summarise, follow the Zoom tweaks and simply add a USB mic, and you can get a very usable sound. But, until/unless we can figure out if Zoom is capable of addressing our 2 issues, it needs to be one performer at a time.

Steve

[buzzardwhiskey]

I worked with a friend yesterday and have been experimenting a ton myself, and I think I’ve kind of “optimized” the sound that I can deliver when using Zoom to transmit both my vocals and my acoustic guitar.

I have no real idea why, but EVERYTHING I’ve tried has “failed” to present even a half-way decent acoustic guitar tone, reliably, when I’ve plugged into a second channel.

The guitar eventually “warbles” or “distorts” somehow. And my interface is not inexpensive.

I’ve been using a nice condenser mic for my vocals, because I like the clarity and the top-end. And I’ve tried really hard to keep it close to my mouth so that it doesn’t pick up the guitar, which is plugged into a second interface channel. I had feared that the warbling and distortion were oddities caused by phasing, and “cross talking” for lack of a better term.

But yesterday I gave up. I put the mic out about 12" - 14” and aimed it so that it could hear my guitar. Then I turn up the gain on the mic and turned WAY DOWN the gain on the guitar pickup channel to about 10% - 20% of the overall mix.

Holy smokes. I’ve recorded several sessions now and the sound it so much better. The guitar doesn’t do anything weird unless the whole signal does something (and that can’t be helped since it’s a network thing).

So anyway... simple is better I guess.

[Br1ck]

Even with all the settings tweaked, Zoom compresses the daylights out of acoustic guitars, and continually wants to favor one sound over the other. My interface is a MOTU digital mixer as well, with it's own basic effects on board. I run a large condenser for a vocal mic which picks up a lot of the acoustic guitar sound too, and I run my guitar PU into it's own channel.

I compress the signal to within an inch of it's life. Zoom's built in compression has a quick attack an insane ratio, and a medium decay. By heavily compressing your signal, Zoom does not see any peak attack transients so does not kick in. Yes, probably more compression than you would like, but the tone is far better. While playing, I monitor the output from my mixer through phones.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

1. As long as only 1 person was singing and playing, things sounded very good, me especially. But, as soon as someone tried to add some fill, or worse, tried to add vocal harmony, Zoom could not handle the additional sound sources.

This is because Zoom, like most of these video chat programs, is "half-duplex", which means only one person can be talking at a time. It's meant to keep things under control during a voice conversation. It happens very fast, so with conversation, you may not even notice, but with music, it just messes everything up. it's basically like have a noise gate, but where yours shuts down in response to someone else playing, and vice versa.

There are a few systems that claim to be full duplex, including Google Meetups or whatever it's called now. And JamKazam, which is optimized for music.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

But yesterday I gave up. I put the mic out about 12" - 14” and aimed it so that it could hear my guitar. Then I turn up the gain on the mic and turned WAY DOWN the gain on the guitar pickup channel to about 10% - 20% of the overall mix.

That matches my experience. For the workshops I've been doing on Zoom, I've just used a mic. People tell me it sounds ok, considering... I tried plugging in when I was first setting up, thinking that might be better, but it wasn't. At best, it was about the same, but was harder to adjust and so on. Since I need a mic for my voice as well, I just stick a mic out front, and that works well for both.

[open-road-matt]

I apologize if this has been mentioned. I quickly glanced through the posts but maybe didn't read them in enough detail.

Has anyone who is using Zoom tried going from OBS to Zoom?

I have been doing weekly live shows on Facebook for the past couple of months going from OBS to Facebook Live but I haven't done anything with Zoom.

I love OBS! I'm not doing anything earth shattering but the quality I get on Facebook by going through OBS, to me, seems so much better than what I see from those who go just through Facebook Live.

So maybe OBS would help those who are using Zoom. I did a search and found this tutorial for connecting OBS and Zoom:

https://medium.com/@paulrichards/con...t-40a22f41ed1c

The reason I like OBS is that I feel like I get everything set up and organized the way I want it in OBS and then send that out to the world. (Including an overlay and a countdown timer!) I use my Bose T1 as my audio interface. The Bose T1 allows me to add effects and EQ beforehand instead of trying to go from a more conventional interface like my Scarlett 2i2 and then into a DAW or something.

I tried the single mic once and it worked well but for some reason I ended up with some strange interference that kicked in about 45 minutes into the show. I still don't know why. So I use a vocal mic, plug in my guitar (through an HX Stomp with an IR) and use an SM57 on my guitar too. I've been happy with the results.

On another note, has anyone watched Lyle Lovett's live streams?

A couple of weeks ago he did one with John Hiatt. I have no knowledge of their set up but it said Zoom in the lower right hand corner so it was somehow a Zoom broadcast. I thought they both sounded great.

This past Friday Lyle did another live stream with Robert Earl Keen. This time there was a logo in the corner for a company called SEER. I have never heard of them. Lyle said they were the sponsor but there was no Zoom logo so I don't know if they were also part of the broadcast. (So maybe there are other Zoom type options.)

Lyle was using just a single mic and he sounded wonderful. REK had his guitar plugged in and a mic positioned more up by his mouth. He had some kind of interference going on, I think with his guitar.

I'm not sure of the point of all of that but it's very interesting to see/hear what the pros are doing.

Matt

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

ISo maybe there are other Zoom type options.

There are lots of options, depending on what you want to do. If you're using Zoom to chat, then you have Skype, Facetime, WebEx, instagram, and many others.

If you're trying to broadcast a single-person show, you don't even need Zoom. You can go direct into You Tube, Facebook, etc. Or you can use OBS to stream to them. (that's what I have done when I've done facebook/YouTube)

If you want to bring someone else in from another location, there are ways to use OBS, by capturing another window, but there's also StreamYard, StageTen, and probably others that let you connect multiple people in multiple locations and show them in boxes (you can't play together due to latency, but you can talk back and forth)

I have not used OBS to Zoom because the VirtualCam doesn't work on a Mac. There seems to be a way to do it on a Mac, but it's more convoluted, and seems like it might be fragile. I have a slightly different way to do most of what OBS does in this case, so I haven't dug into it.

I have been using OBS and Zoom together, but in a less obvious way. You can have them both running, so I can record on OBS while streaming in Zoom. So I've been recording my workshops that way. People see Zoom live, but I have a better recording via OBS afterwards. I keep thinking of doing something where I stream to YouTube via OBS, while people can "call in" on Zoom. So we'd get the quality of YouTube with the interaction of Zoom. The main issue is that YouTube streams seem to be delayed by as much as 10 seconds, so it seems like it might just be more confusing than it's worth.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

So maybe OBS would help those who are using Zoom. I did a search and found this tutorial for connecting OBS and Zoom:

https://medium.com/@paulrichards/con...t-40a22f41ed1c

I did basically that but into Google Meet rather than Zoom. OBS gets the actual camera and interface inputs (in my case Logitech webcam and Focusrite 2i2); use VirtualCam and Virtual Audio Cable for OBS output into Meet.

The Bose T1 allows me to add effects and EQ beforehand

Did you know you can install VSTs (like reverb or EQ) in OBS, just like you would in your DAW? You can add the effects to the OBS output. I played around with it and it worked fine, although I did not try to do it during an actual stream. A mixer like your T1 up front will work too, but this is another option.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Did you know you can install VSTs (like reverb or EQ) in OBS, just like you would in your DAW? You can add the effects to the OBS output. I played around with it and it worked fine, although I did not try to do it during an actual stream. A mixer like your T1 up front will work too, but this is another option.

I did not know that! That's pretty cool. I learn more and more about OBS all the time! I like using the T1 since it allows me to basically have the exact same setup I do live for my streams. I've been using the T1 since it came out so I'm super comfortable with it. But using VSTs in OBS would let me stream without needing power (at least for as long as my laptop battery held out) which could be a cool option. I'll look into that!

Originally Posted by Doug Young

There are lots of options, depending on what you want to do. If you're using Zoom to chat, then you have Skype, Facetime, WebEx, instagram, and many others.

I have heard of some of those other face-to-face online communication platforms.

My point was that it was interesting to me to see Lyle Lovett using Zoom for one show and then appear to use something else (SEER?) for the show this past Friday. He and REK did the last song of the show together, alternating verses. I don't think he and John Hiatt did anything like that. Was it because they couldn't and the seemingly different platform allowed he and REK to do a song together? I don't know but it's interesting to ponder.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

If you're trying to broadcast a single-person show, you don't even need Zoom. You can go direct into You Tube, Facebook, etc. Or you can use OBS to stream to them. (that's what I have done when I've done facebook/YouTube)

I haven't had any reason to do Zoom for music. I spent a couple of months teaching on-line martial arts/self-defense via Zoom but music has all been on Facebook.

My next goal is to use Restream so I can go to both Facebook and YouTube at the same time. I have it all set up and my test stream worked. There are just a couple of things I don't like about it so I need to do some more tweaking.

I think there are many advantages to streaming music from OBS. At least compared to direct to Facebook Live. I'm not sure if those advantages would solve the Zoom problems people described.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I have been using OBS and Zoom together, but in a less obvious way. You can have them both running, so I can record on OBS while streaming in Zoom. So I've been recording my workshops that way. People see Zoom live, but I have a better recording via OBS afterwards. I keep thinking of doing something where I stream to YouTube via OBS, while people can "call in" on Zoom. So we'd get the quality of YouTube with the interaction of Zoom. The main issue is that YouTube streams seem to be delayed by as much as 10 seconds, so it seems like it might just be more confusing than it's worth.

That is an interesting challenge. I suppose this will all keep evolving and improving!

Matt

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

I think there are many advantages to streaming music from OBS. At least compared to direct to Facebook Live. I'm not sure if those advantages would solve the Zoom problems people described.

OBS itself doesn't appear to do any compression or mangling of the audio, so it doesn't have the issues of Zoom as far as audio quality (or video). But depending on what you're running OBS into, you will still have some limitations. Facebook has it's own limits, delays, dropouts, etc, tho it generally seems to be decent.

My guess about SEER, is that it's just some company that sponsored the event and handled the broadcasting (can't seem to find a website for them.) But for example, the concerts Dream Guitars has been promoting and done by a "company" called StreamSide Concerts. They sponsor the show, help promote it, handle the technology, which in their case is just to have a paid StreamYard account that they can schedule an event in. Not sure how/why Zoom would play into something like this at all. With StreamYard, it appears you create a stream, and invite people to join it via a weblink. I haven't tried it, so I'm not sure if it works with OBS. I don't think Zoom would play any role. Maybe SEER was just helping the broadcast a Zoom session via restream.io or something. These restreaming services will let you put up your own logo, I think.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

OBS itself doesn't appear to do any compression or mangling of the audio, so it doesn't have the issues of Zoom as far as audio quality (or video). But depending on what you're running OBS into, you will still have some limitations. Facebook has it's own limits, delays, dropouts, etc, tho it generally seems to be decent.

Agreed! I only tried going straight to Facebook Live once as a private video when I was testing things and it was pretty warbled. I haven't had any of that going from OBS to Facebook Live.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

My guess about SEER, is that it's just some company that sponsored the event and handled the broadcasting (can't seem to find a website for them.) But for example, the concerts Dream Guitars has been promoting and done by a "company" called StreamSide Concerts. They sponsor the show, help promote it, handle the technology, which in their case is just to have a paid StreamYard account that they can schedule an event in. Not sure how/why Zoom would play into something like this at all. With StreamYard, it appears you create a stream, and invite people to join it via a weblink. I haven't tried it, so I'm not sure if it works with OBS. I don't think Zoom would play any role. Maybe SEER was just helping the broadcast a Zoom session via restream.io or something. These restreaming services will let you put up your own logo, I think.

https://seer.la/

There isn't much info on their site but that was the site that was listed in the corner of the Lyle/REK stream this past Friday.

I sure didn't mean to derail the thread with speculation about what Lyle Lovett was or wasn't doing. I was just interesting to me to see a very prominent Zoom logo on the first stream and then something else on this past one. But you're right, there could be all sort of different things going on sponsor-wise and/or broadcasting-wise.

Matt

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

https://seer.la/

There isn't much info on their site but that was the site that was listed in the corner of the Lyle/REK stream this past Friday.

Strange. Their "see us in action" link leads to online reruns of Leave it to Beaver :-)

[phcorrigan]

Last week I participated in a Zoom open mic. My setup was Behringer X1204USB mixer connected to my PC via USB. I used an ADK Hamburg mic for vocal and an ADK Vienna for acoustic guitar. I also mic'd my electric guitar amp with an SM57. I was able to set everything up in advance with a touch of EQ and reverb. Of course, I had original sound enabled on Zoom. Switching between guitars was just a matter of muting and unmuting the respective channels on the mixer.

I got numerous compliments on the sound quality, with one participant saying "It sounded like you were here in the room."

I was actually quite surprised how well it went. One issue with Zoom is that it will cut your speakers/headphones when you're unmuted. I may get an inexpensive A/B switch so I can switch my headphones (in-ear monitors, actually) between Zoom and my mixer's headphone output so that I can monitor the sound a little better.