What's the real story with "Normalization?"

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Is that true if you export a full-level normalized WAV and play it back with a different DAW and converter?

Or, put another way, is the distortion actually in the Nuendo digital file, or do you hear distortion because the analog DAC outputs can't cleanly reproduce that much level?

Or, put a third way, if you do a full-level normalization in Nuendo and the file sounds distorted, if you then do another normalization of that normalized file, but this time make it peak at, say, -10 dB, does it still sound distorted?

Our system is set up with -18="0" so we aren't anywhere near pushing the D to A convertors to their limit. For that matter, we are running Nuendo on a variety of systems with a variety of interfaces so it doesn't seem to be a question of D to As. I think what we are seeing is a clip with a level that exceeds the saturation limit of the digital mixing systems within Nuendo. The solution we found was to drop a tenth of a db in normalization. We do the same when setting look-ahead limiters because they are capable of the same phenomenon.



Bob

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

... I think what we are seeing is a clip with a level that exceeds the saturation limit of the digital mixing systems within Nuendo.

Ah. Mix engine. PT can do the same thing.

The workaround seems to be to mix cool into a Master fader (which governs a pair of buses feeding an audio Mix track), and apply whatever glue compressor and/or brickwall limiting there. No need to push the level hard there, either. You can always normalize after. That way, nothing anywhere near a toasty level goes though a mix engine. Does any of this apply to Nuendo?

[Trevor B.]

Big topic! If your DAW is Logic Pro X you cannot set the normalization amount if you use the Normalization function (Audio File Editor>Function>Normalize). The program automatically sets the maximum Peak Level before clipping (at least that's my understanding). In light of the different loudness standards for different media and modes of transmission a single output level seems like a bad idea to me. On the upside there are other ways in Logic Pro X to set different loudness levels for one's choice of destination(s). Here's a link that covers the topic in considerable detail.
http://logicprogem.com/Logic-Pro-X-T...maization.html

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Ah. Mix engine. PT can do the same thing.

The workaround seems to be to mix cool into a Master fader (which governs a pair of buses feeding an audio Mix track), and apply whatever glue compressor and/or brickwall limiting there. No need to push the level hard there, either. You can always normalize after. That way, nothing anywhere near a toasty level goes though a mix engine. Does any of this apply to Nuendo?

I've just approached it by applying the same top value of a minus one-tenth of a db to the look-ahead compressors that I apply to the normalizing. One tenth of a db is a pretty small price to pay to prevent overs.

Incidentally, I use the same system when I am mastering. I master products fairly regularly and go at it different ways depending on the product: If I am creating a DDP (disc description protocol) image with metadata to send to a plant for CD manufacturing I use Steinberg Wavelab to create the DDP files. I will often do pre-production on Nuendo to get the individual songs ready to go into WaveLab. When I am mastering for video I am complying with the CALM act and setting the levels for -24 LUFS as measured in iZotope Insight. I supply audio files to a DVD or BluRay author.

Bob

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by Trevor B.

Big topic! If your DAW is Logic Pro X you cannot set the normalization amount if you use the Normalization function (Audio File Editor>Function>Normalize). The program automatically sets the maximum Peak Level before clipping (at least that's my understanding). In light of the different loudness standards for different media and modes of transmission a single output level seems like a bad idea to me. On the upside there are other ways in Logic Pro X to set different loudness levels for one's choice of destination(s). Here's a link that covers the topic in considerable detail.

http://logicprogem.com/Logic-Pro-X-T...maization.html

I believe you are slightly mistaken: you can specify a percentage level in settings though of course that then becomes universal. As you say you can’t specify a percentage when actually applying the normalisation.

I haven’t tried changing the value later but I normally set it to around 75% thus leaving me room for manoeuvre later on in mix process. I am on holiday just now and can’t check my Mac so I make this assertion with reservation that I may be wrong and need to double check when I get home!

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by pieterh

I believe you are slightly mistaken: you can specify a percentage level in settings though of course that then becomes universal. As you say you can’t specify a percentage when actually applying the normalisation.

You're right. If you want to change the"Normalize" setting in Logic Pro X: Audio File Editor>Functions>Function Settings. Bingo. My default setting is 50.1185%, which apparently is -6.00dB. I don't see myself changing it.
Thank you, pieterh, for the heads up.

[DupleMeter]

Normalization can help if you have really quiet tracks that need some gain to be within range of your system/DAW's ability to effectively deal with...but other than that, there are much better ways to increase gain IMHO. Most of those better options also provide other benefits to your signal chain.

The problem with clipping can be avoided with a good meter that reads True Peak (inter-sample overs are usually the culprit & most PPM meters don't detect inter-sample overs) & being smart about headroom.

FWIW - the broadcast industry is paving the way with some great specs for loudness & levels (ITU-R BS 1770). I'm hoping the music industry follows suit to help "normalize" our diverse listening environments & sources (pun intended).