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  #16  
Old 03-01-2018, 12:23 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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I realize that the term "carbon fiber" is a sort of catch-all term for that general area of materials. I stand by my point though.

As for wood used, there is still plenty of harvested stock of rosewood in the hands of builders that, since already harvested, should be used to build guitars. We can't generalize and say that anybody that buys a rosewood guitar today is "raping the forests". If harvesting of rosewood and other endangered species is completely stopped, the problem will be taken care of, and slowly over time, the existing stock of rosewood will be depleted.

I also don't see fault in anybody that currently owns a rosewood instrument, or buying a new instrument built from a builder's existing stockpile. So, to me, the whole tone of this part of the thread could be changed and made less guilt-ridden or "shaming" by acknowledging that if harvesting of rosewood is stopped now completely, then the "raping of the forests" would be stopped, at least in this part of what would otherwise be harvested.

There are plenty of new and used rosewood guitars to keep folks happy for quite some time as new guitars transition away from rosewood as the current stockpiles are depleted. I see no reason to not build with these existing stocks, as well as buy and sell these new instruments and all the used instruments that exist.

So, please, can we stop the high-handed rhetoric and get real? People can be educated without slapping them around.

Tony
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  #17  
Old 03-01-2018, 12:32 PM
redir redir is offline
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I'm trying real hard to not sound uppity and high ended because I understand the sensitive of this topic. I do have many sets of rosewood in stock and other species on CITES as well that I will indeed use some day. But one thing I will not ever use again is Ivory. And I do have some of that in stock. I won't use it because in doing so I believe it promotes the use of it. Even if it's fossilized or has been around since the 1920's. I am not judging anyone in that statement I am simply stating my philosophy and hoping it catches on Obviously I have my own acceptable level of appropriateness. Someone else might consider me hypocritical since I'll still use rosewood. I'm fine with that.

I've played a few carbon fiber guitars before and have been quite impressed with the tone. It's not my thing personally as a builder but I'd love to have one as like a camp fire or boating/beach guitar.
  #18  
Old 03-01-2018, 12:50 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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The idea I am opposed to is that anyone buying a rosewood guitar today is "raping the forests". That kind of generalization sets my teeth on edge.

My younger brother bought out L.R. Baggs' stock of Brazilian rosewood when Baggs retired from building guitars to focus on electronics and pickups. That was, I believe back in the early 80s. Should he build guitars today using that old wood or do something else with it according to the high-handed sentiments expressed in this thread? If he should not build guitars with it, what should he do with it - burn it, make furniture, what...? If he builds some guitars with that wood and somebody buys them, somebody else comes along and says the guy who bought the guitars is "raping the forest". ?

To post and say that you personally choose not to do something and then give your personal reason is one thing. To post accusing people of "raping the forest" for even having preferences for a certain type of wood is something else entirely and yes, I am not going to shut up when folks pull that crap. It is much more plausible to consider all aspects and possibilities while still putting forth your own beliefs and practices.

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Last edited by Acousticado; 03-02-2018 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Inappropriate
  #19  
Old 03-01-2018, 01:55 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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I did state in the above post "I do think that rosewood and other wood that is endangered, that has already been cut should be used, like the Indian and the Buffalo, use all of what gave it's life for you"....something to that effect.

On utube there is a video that describes the process of "starting a movement" and or getting a large group of people to "want to do that" whatever "that" may be. It is a study in group think psychology.

In the video it shows an outdoor concert with a bunch of people just standing around, then, one guy starts to dance like a madman, at first people look at him like, "what up with this guy" , he is the odd man out, the outlying weirdo but then, something very "human" happens, another guy joins in, now there are two, and as important as the second guy is for establishing a "movement" it is the third person who joins in that really solidifies the "start of something" that third person is key to the group of observers standing around watching to think "hey maybe this dancing stiff isn't so bad after all" and the next thing you know, the entire field of people who just moments ago were standing around are now all dancing, emulating the one guy who started the "movement"

And in the same way that "movements" or trends start as described above is the same way that they get deconstructed.

I very much see your side of this, I really do, regardless of what you may think of my "opinion" or my way of expressing it.

Every guitar that is made from these materials , old cut or new, helps to psychologically re-enforce the "ok'ness" of using these woods.

I'm simply saying that the group of "us" are not responsible enough, regardless of the reasons, to manage and use this material properly, until factory farming of these popular woods is scaled up to easily supply the industries that want them, we, as the stewards of the planet need to do everything possible to stop using these materials for x amount of time so as to allow the ecosystems to heal.

If we could somehow say, "ok we cut these trees down, we'll only use these, and not cut anymore new ones down" I think that's what many people think is going on, or hope is going on,but again I suggest that we have "raped the forest" so much that extreme measures such as "wood shaming" are necessary.

I think it's too difficult to determine what was cut "legal" and what was not in the past and that's why we have Lacey act and CITES forcing us to change.

I'm all for certain aspects of it, and very much against others.

The bottom line is that we have treated some forests like crap with the dollar being the motivating factor for their destruction, knowing that we can not know exactly how wood was sourced, we have to now deconstruct the dance and make it broad spectrum "not ok" to use this material until the forest is healed and factory sources are available

every guitar that gets made from these materials, even if the wood was cut 100 years ago sends a message of "it's ok" when the problem is we have an established record of driving crap into the ground until it's "not ok" , just like Elephants, just like Ivory.

So it is the compounding psychological effect in that we are not responsible enough to use Rosewood right now, because if we were we would not be having this conversation and that we as a species as a group unfortunately need to treat ourselves like children and "take the candy away" because every piece you shove in your mouth makes some other kid want to shove it in his mouth and spoil their dinner,
  #20  
Old 03-01-2018, 02:25 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
I did state in the above post "I do think that rosewood and other wood that is endangered, that has already been cut should be used, like the Indian and the Buffalo, use all of what gave it's life for you"....something to that effect.

On utube there is a video that describes the process of "starting a movement" and or getting a large group of people to "want to do that" whatever "that" may be. It is a study in group think psychology.

In the video it shows an outdoor concert with a bunch of people just standing around, then, one guy starts to dance like a madman, at first people look at him like, "what up with this guy" , he is the odd man out, the outlying weirdo but then, something very "human" happens, another guy joins in, now there are two, and as important as the second guy is for establishing a "movement" it is the third person who joins in that really solidifies the "start of something" that third person is key to the group of observers standing around watching to think "hey maybe this dancing stiff isn't so bad after all" and the next thing you know, the entire field of people who just moments ago were standing around are now all dancing, emulating the one guy who started the "movement"

And in the same way that "movements" or trends start as described above is the same way that they get deconstructed.

I very much see your side of this, I really do, regardless of what you may think of my "opinion" or my way of expressing it.

Every guitar that is made from these materials , old cut or new, helps to psychologically re-enforce the "ok'ness" of using these woods.

I'm simply saying that the group of "us" are not responsible enough, regardless of the reasons, to manage and use this material properly, until factory farming of these popular woods is scaled up to easily supply the industries that want them, we, as the stewards of the planet need to do everything possible to stop using these materials for x amount of time so as to allow the ecosystems to heal.

If we could somehow say, "ok we cut these trees down, we'll only use these, and not cut anymore new ones down" I think that's what many people think is going on, or hope is going on,but again I suggest that we have "raped the forest" so much that extreme measures such as "wood shaming" are necessary.

I think it's too difficult to determine what was cut "legal" and what was not in the past and that's why we have Lacey act and CITES forcing us to change.

I'm all for certain aspects of it, and very much against others.

The bottom line is that we have treated some forests like crap with the dollar being the motivating factor for their destruction, knowing that we can not know exactly how wood was sourced, we have to now deconstruct the dance and make it broad spectrum "not ok" to use this material until the forest is healed and factory sources are available

every guitar that gets made from these materials, even if the wood was cut 100 years ago sends a message of "it's ok" when the problem is we have an established record of driving crap into the ground until it's "not ok" , just like Elephants, just like Ivory.

So it is the compounding psychological effect in that we are not responsible enough to use Rosewood right now, because if we were we would not be having this conversation and that we as a species as a group unfortunately need to treat ourselves like children and "take the candy away" because every piece you shove in your mouth makes some other kid want to shove it in his mouth and spoil their dinner,
I think it is best for me to stop here. When we got back from Vietnam, we were treated like crap. This, and so much of the "green shaming" feels much like that to me, so let's just leave it. I simply feel there are more intelligent and productive ways to make things happen.

Tony
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Last edited by Kerbie; 03-03-2018 at 02:38 AM. Reason: Edited
  #21  
Old 03-01-2018, 02:28 PM
redir redir is offline
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For existing materials I would use them too with the exception as I said of Ivory and a few other animal products and again that's just my personal belief with no judgment. I would reserve harsh judgement on those who would kill for it today though But if you get some old piano keys and make nuts out of it that's cool. I won't but that's my prerogative and I'm happy to explain why in the hopes that it makes even a small difference.

But it is a good point to note that in doing so it does inject some confusion into the market about how rare these things are and how much of an impact they are having and the possibility that it influences further poaching. But that will all end soon, once the existing materials are used up. In a way that's what we are doing now, we are phasing out.

So a test study like this is a cool way to demonstrate the possibilities of going forward as these traditional materials are getting phased out.
  #22  
Old 03-01-2018, 03:04 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by redir View Post
For existing materials I would use them too with the exception as I said of Ivory and a few other animal products and again that's just my personal belief with no judgment. I would reserve harsh judgement on those who would kill for it today though But if you get some old piano keys and make nuts out of it that's cool. I won't but that's my prerogative and I'm happy to explain why in the hopes that it makes even a small difference.

But it is a good point to note that in doing so it does inject some confusion into the market about how rare these things are and how much of an impact they are having and the possibility that it influences further poaching. But that will all end soon, once the existing materials are used up. In a way that's what we are doing now, we are phasing out.

So a test study like this is a cool way to demonstrate the possibilities of going forward as these traditional materials are getting phased out.
This was my point too. I am glad you were able to get that too. As for shaming going on in this thread (not you), is everybody who posts a NGD that involves rosewood to be shamed, or am I the only target? What about all those in this and all other threads who own rosewood guitars, or was it just my post and me? It would take a lot of posting to prove otherwise. We can't have BOTH builders using up their available stock AND shaming of those who buy the guitars.

Personally, I think (the person I quoted here - redir) has a far more reasonable way of expressing your ideas, and I take no issue with what you have said because of the way you have said it.

Tony
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  #23  
Old 03-01-2018, 03:26 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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Originally Posted by redir View Post
For existing materials I would use them too with the exception as I said of Ivory and a few other animal products and again that's just my personal belief with no judgment. I would reserve harsh judgement on those who would kill for it today though But if you get some old piano keys and make nuts out of it that's cool. I won't but that's my prerogative and I'm happy to explain why in the hopes that it makes even a small difference.

But it is a good point to note that in doing so it does inject some confusion into the market about how rare these things are and how much of an impact they are having and the possibility that it influences further poaching. But that will all end soon, once the existing materials are used up. In a way that's what we are doing now, we are phasing out.

So a test study like this is a cool way to demonstrate the possibilities of going forward as these traditional materials are getting phased out.
I agree, for me, your "moral psychology" behind the Ivory is the exact same ideology as the Rosewood.

I much like you basically feel/felt the same way. I was rationalizing my "okness" with Rosewood as it was not a higher consciousness life form like an Elephant, but then more recently I changed my way of thinking.

My reasoning behind this was that after thinking about the situation in more detail, if I were to add up all the monkeys, rodents,birds,insects etc. that would exist in a 100yd x 100 yd swath of land , and now that the canopy is gone, all that life either ends or gets displaced, and then the next 100 yds gets cut, and then the process starts again for these creatures and eventually there will be no more places to get displaced to. So in a way forest decimation effects more higher life forms and or feels like on the same level as killing elephants to me.

Unfortunately I feel you are correct in that these things will "naturally" phase themselves out ie. we will use it all up and there will be no more left.

I too am encouraged by these types of studies as they help people understand there are alternates.
  #24  
Old 03-01-2018, 03:54 PM
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This was my point too. I am glad you were able to get that too. As for shaming going on in this thread (not you), is everybody who posts a NGD that involves rosewood to be shamed, or am I the only target? What about all those in this and all other threads who own rosewood guitars, or was it just my post and me? It would take a lot of posting to prove otherwise. We can't have BOTH builders using up their available stock AND shaming of those who buy the guitars.

Personally, I think (the person I quoted here - redir) has a far more reasonable way of expressing your ideas, and I take no issue with what you have said because of the way you have said it.

Tony
I think you should re read some of the things I wrote,

I said, "the question I would ask you, or really anyone as I don't want to single you out"

so, yes, in my mind, regardless if I'm right or not, anyone, or everyone, who touts their NGD Rosewood guitar is part of the problem.

again, I understand the old wood, we should use it.

again, what I am saying is that by continuing to use rosewood , anyone, anywhere, has a compounding psychological effect that basically says "hey it's ok to use this material"

and yes it is a moral choice at this point. again I apologize for making you feel like I was singling you out as "the bad guy who wants a rosewood guitar" that was not my intention...the point is, knowing what we know now, how can you or anyone "want" a rosewood guitar.

It is just like Ivory, we know that there is still some out there that was taken 100 years ago, and in this case, unlike the Indian and the Buffalo, the stakes are so high, the Elephants so close to extinction, that even using it, just like wearing fur now, should evoke a feeling of repulsion in most moral people.

It is the psychological bias that Ivory and tortoise shell evoke, the "oh my god you used Ivory" response that I would like to see with Rosewood, why?

again, if it were a tree here or a tree therel, no problem, but they clear cut huge areas of land and kill and displace 1000's of animals, an environmental crime that is right up there with killing elephants, it just doesn;t seem that way because its a tree, a lower life form, it's not so much the tree, it's all the animals that live in the tree.

what people don't want to kill an elephant to get the Ivory because thats wrong, but they are ok with killing 100 monkeys, 600 birds of different species, 300 indigenous rodents and millions of insects in order to get the wood that they call home?

and so again, I'm very sorry for the way I said what I said hit your ear, but again if you read again I think you will see that I included you with "everybody" because think this is "everybodys" problem and that we need to open our eyes to the genocide and that when you change yourself you will change the world.
  #25  
Old 03-01-2018, 04:08 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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I think you should re read some of the things I wrote,

I said, "the question I would ask you, or really anyone as I don't want to single you out"

so, yes, in my mind, regardless if I'm right or not, anyone, or everyone, who touts their NGD Rosewood guitar is part of the problem.

again, I understand the old wood, we should use it.

again, what I am saying is that by continuing to use rosewood , anyone, anywhere, has a compounding psychological effect that basically says "hey it's ok to use this material"

and yes it is a moral choice at this point. again I apologize for making you feel like I was singling you out as "the bad guy who wants a rosewood guitar" that was not my intention...the point is, knowing what we know now, how can you or anyone "want" a rosewood guitar.

It is just like Ivory, we know that there is still some out there that was taken 100 years ago, and in this case, unlike the Indian and the Buffalo, the stakes are so high, the Elephants so close to extinction, that even using it, just like wearing fur now, should evoke a feeling of repulsion in most moral people.

It is the psychological bias that Ivory and tortoise shell evoke, the "oh my god you used Ivory" response that I would like to see with Rosewood, why?

again, if it were a tree here or a tree therel, no problem, but they clear cut huge areas of land and kill and displace 1000's of animals, an environmental crime that is right up there with killing elephants, it just doesn;t seem that way because its a tree, a lower life form, it's not so much the tree, it's all the animals that live in the tree.

what people don't want to kill an elephant to get the Ivory because thats wrong, but they are ok with killing 100 monkeys, 600 birds of different species, 300 indigenous rodents and millions of insects in order to get the wood that they call home?

and so again, I'm very sorry for the way I said what I said hit your ear, but again if you read again I think you will see that I included you with "everybody" because think this is "everybodys" problem and that we need to open our eyes to the genocide and that when you change yourself you will change the world.
I read what you said. However, you quoted my post and then went into "shaming" mode. The reason I posed the question about WHO you are shaming is that many, many people in these forums currently own, will likely buy, or at least wish they could buy, a rosewood guitar. If you are not just shaming me and instead, everyone, then I expect to see you quoting and shaming other posts indicating their preference for rosewood guitars as you did mine. Look right now in the Custom Shop sub-forum and you will see both Brazilian and Indian rosewood builds being discussed. Are you planning to shame those people?

The problem I have with your posts is the shaming. You must consider yourself superior and needing to shame those of us "baser creatures". How do you figure? You have no right to be shaming us (or me) here, and I am sure the moderators would agree if they became involved. You do have the right to express your personal views and invite rational discussion. Redir posted similar views, and did so in a way that would lead to rational discussion. Read his posts and then yours, and maybe you will understand. You can lead with emotion if you wish, but don't expect reasonable responses. It is better to deal with this rationally, and I think Redir's posts are an example you might consider.

Tony
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Last edited by tbeltrans; 03-01-2018 at 04:42 PM.
  #26  
Old 03-01-2018, 05:23 PM
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I think what Jesupe is saying is that we 'monkeys' as he put it meaning us people of course in a humorous way, are just accustomed to doing things a certain way and unfortunately that way the things we are doing sometimes goes unnoticed out of habit, tradition, culture and so on.

As far as using rosewood today, I'm not yet ready to abandon it. Like I said I'm building one right now with EIR and I have to say it's beautiful. But I feel a bit more comfortable knowing that I also own 60 cocobolo trees that once fully matured will replace hundreds of times over what I will ever use.

And I don't mean to suggest, that's why. I never intended to replace my usage, quite honestly it's an investment but one that I take pride in knowing it also is a service. Same reason why I ride my bike to work every day, not so much as to save gas but becasue I like it and hey at the same time it saves gas. I'd use the Amazon, Mad, and EIR rosewood I have in stock anyway. If I 'owned' 60 African elephants I would not use ivory

There are certain levels of acceptance that we are all willing to take. I appreciate those who are on the extreme side of conservation as that is ultimately the direction we are going but there is a reasonable and fair in between at this stage of the game. I'm not an ethicist but I'd guess most would agree.
  #27  
Old 03-01-2018, 05:34 PM
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I think what Jesupe is saying is that we 'monkeys' as he put it meaning us people of course in a humorous way, are just accustomed to doing things a certain way and unfortunately that way the things we are doing sometimes goes unnoticed out of habit, tradition, culture and so on.

As far as using rosewood today, I'm not yet ready to abandon it. Like I said I'm building one right now with EIR and I have to say it's beautiful. But I feel a bit more comfortable knowing that I also own 60 cocobolo trees that once fully matured will replace hundreds of times over what I will ever use.

And I don't mean to suggest, that's why. I never intended to replace my usage, quite honestly it's an investment but one that I take pride in knowing it also is a service. Same reason why I ride my bike to work every day, not so much as to save gas but becasue I like it and hey at the same time it saves gas. I'd use the Amazon, Mad, and EIR rosewood I have in stock anyway. If I 'owned' 60 African elephants I would not use ivory

There are certain levels of acceptance that we are all willing to take. I appreciate those who are on the extreme side of conservation as that is ultimately the direction we are going but there is a reasonable and fair in between at this stage of the game. I'm not an ethicist but I'd guess most would agree.
Hopefully, in my last post, I was clear and focused on the issues I have with the tone of these posts in the thread. I really have little to add.

Thanks,

Tony
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  #28  
Old 03-02-2018, 09:46 PM
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I think all have made their points, nothing else really needs to be said. Thread closed.
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