Bigsby question. Fixable or send guitar back??

[Carbonius]

I received my Godin Montreal limited edition unscathed. I'm not doing a full NGD at this time as the outcome of this might change all that. However I will tell a little bit about it.

I like almost everything about it, maybe even love it;
-The setup out of the box is very good. There is no buzzing anywhere on the neck, fret work is impeccable.
-the TV Jones classic pickups are fabulous. I've just been playing through my POD HD500 but already found some very nice tones. I'm actually surprised how much of a crunch you can get out of these things if you want it. It's certainly not a metal machine. However getting some really nice classic even hard Rock tones are easily achievable without sounding phony. What I love is the definition when playing chords even with distortion. Not muddy and not brittle. Clean or with subtle break up is where this really excels. Just some wonderful inspiring tones there. The tone knob is also a very usable with a lot of range.
-I love the tuning machines they use. 18:1 on the bass side and 26:1 on the treble side. On some of the electrics I tried it was hard just to get it really nicely in tune. Not a problem with that here. That is until I use the bigsby...

And in here lies my problem;

-Godin use as roller saddles on the bridge which are supposed to help it stay in tune. This is mostly true but unfortunately not entirely true.
-The bigsby in question is the B70, pictured on my guitar below (pic from sale)
-The A, B and high E strings stay perfectly in tune when I use the bigsby.
-The low E sometimes stays in tune and sometimes doesn't.
-The D and G strings always go out of tune and in a very strange way. They always go sharp after even minor use with a bigsby. Now I've read that you just use the bigsby a little bit again in the opposite direction and it fixes it... this will not work for me. I kept thinking it was a new strings but that's not it. With both strings I go well under the pitch, a full semitone before bringing them back up to pitch. So there is tension on the strings. Then I use the tremolo to lower the pitch a bit, gently release it and the notes are Sharp! this is very frustrating. At this point I wish I didn't have a bigsby at all but I really do like it. I like using it when I'm playing but then I'm out of tune. I need something that stays in tune very well.

Is this something that can be fixed or am I out of luck??

I have a 14 day trial, but I'm probably looking at $150 to $200 in return shipping (that's Canada). I could certainly use that money to invest in some fixes but only if it's a sure-fire fix.

What do you guys think???

[PTony]

https://bricksbiggsfix.com/product/btsv3/

As mentioned in your initial quest of which semi-hollow to buy. The string break angle is the issue. This “fix” lessens the angle, and increases tuning stability. It saved my Gretsch (with a B-70) from being yet another great guitar that just wouldn’t work for me, or the weekly lengthy live sets.

It’s a main stage guitar now. The “squishy spring” he offers rounds out the B-70 and makes it a real joy to play.

[Darwin]

I think the nut slots could be binding. -- Darwin

Stunning guitar by the way. Gorgeous color!

[PTony]

Originally Posted by Darwin

I think the nut slots could be binding. -- Darwin

Stunning guitar by the way. Gorgeous color!

Agreed. Love the color! Fantastic looking guitar. Exactly my taste.

While the nut is always suspect when tuning issues arise (far too many jump the gun to replace tuners when the nut was the culprit all along) I’d respectfully propose that the nut isn’t the case in this instance. I’ve dealt with nearly the exact same issue. Bigsby’s tend to have severe string break angles and are an overlooked culprit. I have personally moved guitars out for the same issues and, at one point, even wrote Bigsby’s off all together.

At any rate, I hope that you find a cure for your tuning issues and the Godin is a keeper and permanent addition to your stable.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by PTony

https://bricksbiggsfix.com/product/btsv3/

As mentioned in your initial quest of which semi-hollow to buy. The string break angle is the issue. This “fix” lessens the angle, and increases tuning stability. It saved my Gretsch (with a B-70) from being yet another great guitar that just wouldn’t work for me, or the weekly lengthy live sets.

It’s a main stage guitar now. The “squishy spring” he offers rounds out the B-70 and makes it a real joy to play.

So this is the type of problem you were talking about then? I wasn't sure this was it. I wish I had time to get the parts in and try them. However with shipping from the US (I assume) and Christmas business, there just isn't enough time.

Turms out there's a test I can run. I was checking out the website you have and came across the following;

"Out of frustration, many guitar owners will bypass the tension roller altogether. They notice a great improvement in tuning stability, but often knock a string out of the saddle groove while strumming or push a string out of the groove during a bend. To tell if tuning instability is resulting from an extreme string break angle, bypassing the tension roller temporarily is perfect."

I will try this test and see what happens with some trem movement. Thanks for the link!!

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by PTony

Agreed. Love the color! Fantastic looking guitar. Exactly my taste.

While the nut is always suspect when tuning issues arise (far too many jump the gun to replace tuners when the nut was the culprit all along) I’d respectfully propose that the nut isn’t the case in this instance. I’ve dealt with nearly the exact same issue. Bigsby’s tend to have severe string break angles and are an overlooked culprit. I have personally moved guitars out for the same issues and, at one point, even wrote Bigsby’s off all together.

At any rate, I hope that you find a cure for your tuning issues and the Godin is a keeper and permanent addition to your stable.

Thanks guys. The color is just a tad metallic. Not super sparkly like some, just enough in my opinion. Here's a high res pic from Godin's website.

[Steve DeRosa]

Old Gretsch guy here - own three, two with Bigsby tailpieces (as well as another brand Bigsby-equipped hollowbody); as the insurance commercial says, I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two - in order of increasing expense:

• A Bigsby needs some motion at the bridge in order to work properly; in the old days this was achieved one of three ways: the "Sorkin" bridge (an aluminum compensated-top bridge that rocked on the height posts, and allowed for reasonably good intonation with the heavier strings in use during the '50s-early '60s), the "bar" bridge (featured on the Gretsch Chet Atkins guitars and widely held to be the best-sounding of all the Bigsby-compatible bridges, this one also rocked on the height posts but did not allow for intonation other than slanting like an acoustic - which created its own set of problems), and the Gretsch-exclusive "Space-Control" bridge (a primitive roller design that allowed the strings to move individually but was also near-impossible to intonate - FYI the revised editions fitted to the MIJ Professional Series guitars have addressed the latter problem). I'd start by loosening the strings and spraying the roller threads with Tri-Flon (a Teflon-based lubricant available at most hardware, auto supply, and gun shops) - that should allow just enough motion at the bridge end, without throwing your guitar out of tune or altering the inter-string distance...
• When the Bigsby design was introduced flatwound strings were the norm among electric players; these can often be the solution to "sticky" string problems at the nut end, especially if you also apply a bit of graphite (common pencil lead will do) to the nut slots. As I'm sure you're aware these will offer a mellower tone as well, with stronger fundamentals and fewer overtones, and while I might be hesitant to recommend them on a guitar of this type with full-size humbuckers the Gretsch Filter'tron-style pickups on your instrument have sufficient upper-end response to maintain clarity and cut; just as an aside, if you tend to think of flatwound strings as thuddy and dull, you need to try a set of the current-generation flats - not only are they inherently brighter as a whole than their vintage predecessors, but you can set the action far lower than with comparable-gauge roundwound or half-round strings (the secret behind all those hyper-speed '50s jazz and rockabilly licks), and many players I know who have made the switch at my suggestion have never gone back...
• There's no harm in having your tech check out the nut - while Godin is usually on top of their game in this department (my CW II is one of exactly three guitars I've owned in the last 56 years that needed no setup whatsoever - and every other Godin-family instrument I've ever played has been well within comparable spec) the particular style/gauge of string you're using may necessitate a slight tweak; that said, based on my own experience with Godin guitars (own two, used to recommend them to my students all the time) I wouldn't try this myself - a little goes a long way, any adjustments are IME going to be very fine in nature, and if it's done right the first time by competent hands there won't be any regrets (in terms of major recutting/replacement) down the line...
• Although the traditional fixes above solve nearly all the Bigsby issues I've personally observed new inventions are inevitably a response to a real problem, and if your difficulties do in fact result from excessive downward pressure at the bridge the elevated roller/stabilizer might well be the way to go (bear in mind that you lose nothing by making this your last resort - you'll come out with a better-playing guitar in the process). While the roller-bypass suggestion will allow you to determine whether you need less downforce, as previously stated it is in no way a permanent solution; in addition to having strings jump the saddle grooves you're going to be generating strange harmonics behind the bridge as a consequence of the additional "dead" string length, which can make your guitar sound out of tune on certain notes and/or overly "hot" or "dull" on others. As suggested above you may also need a softer spring with this modification, especially if you like to use your Bigsby outside its original "soft-bend" parameters...

Hope this helps...

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Old Gretsch guy here - own three, two with Bigsby tailpieces (as well as another brand Bigsby-equipped hollowbody); as the insurance commercial says, I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two

I didn't quote your whole reply, I love the intro. LOL.

Some very useful information there. I haven't thought about flatwounds for a long time now. That could actually solve another problem that I have which is the position shifting sounds. I've altered my technique a lot to mitigate this but it still happens. I had heard that flatwounds are now brighter. That's something that I will try as it is not an expensive thing.

I will try to bypass the down pressure, just as a test. It's something I can certainly do on my own. that should help me to zero in on the problem a little bit.

I never got into adjusting a nut myself, so I don't have the proper tools to do a good job. I've had a couple of techs completely butcher one, so it is something I treat very cautiously. Certainly something I had considered but I thought it unlikely that both the D and the G would be tight. Especially with the G being a plain steel string. But it certainly can't happen. Down pressure test should help solve that one for me.

Thanks for the detailed reply, I really do appreciate it!

[maxtheaxe]

+1 on those strings binding in the nut...first thing that occurred to me and I see that a couple others agree.

You should get some 'Big Bends Nut Sauce' and put a dab in those slots. I use it on all my electrics, especially those with trems, and have virtually zero tuning issues. There are a couple other similar lubes out there, and you could even try ordinary pencil lead/graphite.

If that doesn't cure it, you might need to go to locking tuners, ore even PTFE impregnated nut material (Graph-tech Trem Nut) but try the nut lube first.

Good luck!

[Kerbie]

I just have to say... that is one gorgeous guitar! Nice color...

[PTony]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

While the roller-bypass suggestion will allow you to determine whether you need less downforce, as previously stated it is in no way a permanent solution; in addition to having strings jump the saddle grooves you're going to be generating strange harmonics behind the bridge as a consequence of the additional "dead" string length, which can make your guitar sound out of tune on certain notes and/or overly "hot" or "dull" on others. As suggested above you may also need a softer spring with this modification, especially if you like to use your Bigsby outside its original "soft-bend" parameters...[/LIST]Hope this helps...

I’ve experienced no string jump or strange harmonics at all. And, I play lengthy live sets weekly. With the Biggs Fix there is still plenty of down pressure on the bridge. In fact, I’ve never had a string jump once. I’ve also not experienced any strange harmonics or “out of tune/intonation” problems. I will admit that I tend to play fairly heavy handed at times.

I +1 the flatwound string suggestion and would also add that if using traditional strings using a wound G helps.

I use S.I.T .011’s. on my Gretsch. Cost friendly, always include both a wound and unwound G, and a spare B or E depending on the pack.

I’ve not changed the nut or tuners as the “Biggs Fix”, a wound G, the “Squishy Spring”, and a set of .011s have remedied my tuning issues.

Again, the nut could be the culprit, and it’s true that performing some of the above mentioned tests won’t hurt a thing. Specifically the test mentioned regarding down-pressure from the Biggs Fix page. Which can be returned to normal without hindering a return if necessary.

I hope you find the solution for your Godin. It really is one of the most beautiful guitars I’ve seen in a while. Keep us posted.

[FrankHudson]

+1 on everything Steve said. And by the way, that guitar looks gorgeous and I'm jealous.

I have flat-wounds on one of my hollow-body guitars currently, and have tried them on my Jaguar. They do change the guitar's sound, which of course can be good or bad. On the Jaguar I didn't like the change, but that's a report of my needs and taste, and set of strings is an affordable thing to try. I've never moved the other guitar (DeArmond X155) off flat-wounds for more than decade, the two just go together.

I have a roller bridge on one Bigsby guitar, and it really seems to help. On the Jaguar (not a Bigsby, but similar issues) I went with Graphtech saddles which also help.

The "shake the trem arm slightly while not strumming the strings" fix while playing is always a good trick that you already know. I try to remember to do it after a not-what-it-was-designed-to-do bend.

If you find that you don't like the change in sound from flat-wound strings, consider Elixirs. I have them on two Bigsby equipped guitars right now (and that Jaguar). I think they are the Nanoweb electric variety. They seem to work well (as do flat-wounds) with the lubed nut slots and the Graphtech saddles on the Jag (which also has a rocker bridge), and they don't sound like flat-wounds (again, this could be a plus or a minus, depending on the sound you like/need).

[Carbonius]

Hey guys, I'm posting an update.

This morning I decided I would email https://bricksbiggsfix.com. They make a modified roller bar and also a spring that apparently changes the feel. This link was shared with me by PTony above (thanks again). It's Christmas Eve so I did not expect a fast reply.

I got home and took on the task of stringing the guitar with strings going over the stabilizer bar. this pretty well cleared up my problem with the G string but the D string was still quite bad. I also think I didn't notice the low E string because it was certainly acting up. I put some pencil lead in the nut slots of the D and E string to see if it would help. My D string seems to have gotten worse. Graphite can't do that so there must be a catch in there somewhere or tight slot. Now a little bit of trem movement makes the D go 20 to 25 cents sharp. That's ridiculous! No amount of re-tuning the guitar fixes the problem.

Just before I started typing this reply I checked my email. Turns out the reply to my email was incredibly fast. In less than an hour Bill Brickwell replied!! He didn't just give me a yes or no answer to my question like many companies do. I got a very thorough and detailed reply from him. Very impressive customer service, and I'm not even a customer yet! I explained to him that I'd like to give it a shot but I don't have enough time to get it in stock during my 14 day trial. Bill echoed that I should really go after the nut first, that's priority one.

There's very few people I trust with my guitars, so I will take my guitar to an established luthier later this week. in fact, this is now the only guy I trust with my guitars. This guy actually has an 18 to 24-month build wait list, so he's no slouch. first I'll get him to clean up the slots and see if that fixes the problem. If that fixes it and this guitars a keeper then I will probably get him to make me a new nut. I noticed this nut is narrow versus the neck width. I believe I could get 1/16 on each side, so an additional 1/8th. That's a lot when it comes to nut width!

I better stop, I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm not trying to get too attached in case I have to send this baby back. even on the B & high E strings, I don't like that the pitch goes off by 2 or 3 cents when I use it. I'm not sure if the squishy spring we'll solve this or if I just need a pro setup on my bigsby. All the roller saddles work and the stabilizer bar also rolls. I guess I'll have the luthier take a look at the whole thing.

Thanks for the advice, I will update further as things progress.

[GuitarLuva]

Yeah dude that is an awesome guitar I would hate to see you jump the gun and get rid of it too soon. Lemme tell you my story...I bought a Godin Montreal Premiere Triple Play edition and wanted to put a Bigsby on it. I emailed Bigsby several times with questions and nobody responded to me so I went looking elsewhere. I found another tremolo known as the "Les Trem" so I bought it and installed it. No matter what I did I couldn't keep the **** thing in tune so I went looking for answers as well. I ended up buying a set of Planet waves autotrim locking tuners (even though I too loved the stock tuners) which were a simple drop in replacement, and a Graphtech black tusq XL nut. I certainly would've added a roller saddle but don't want to part with the triple play piezo bridge. Just those 2 changes fixed my tuning issues. I also use a pencil on my bridge slots but you wouldn't need to bother with the roller bridge though it would never hurt. I go mad on that trem all day long and it stays in tune no problem now.

When I was younger I always thought a semi was strictly for jazz and blues and never even tried one until a few years ago. I was a Les Paul guy my whole life. Since acquiring the Godin I sold the Les Paul I had. Mine has different pickups than yours. I use the Seymour Duncan SH-5 paired with a Pearly gates neck and with that combo in this guitar I can happily play any of my music genres including metal. Love the added airiness from the semi I will never part with it, unless someone steals it. Hope this info helps.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Yeah dude that is an awesome guitar I would hate to see you jump the gun and get rid of it too soon. Lemme tell you my story...I bought a Godin Montreal Premiere Triple Play edition and wanted to put a Bigsby on it. I emailed Bigsby several times with questions and nobody responded to me so I went looking elsewhere. I found another tremolo known as the "Les Trem" so I bought it and installed it. No matter what I did I couldn't keep the **** thing in tune so I went looking for answers as well. I ended up buying a set of Planet waves autotrim locking tuners (even though I too loved the stock tuners) which were a simple drop in replacement, and a Graphtech black tusq XL nut. I certainly would've added a roller saddle but don't want to part with the triple play piezo bridge. Just those 2 changes fixed my tuning issues. I also use a pencil on my bridge slots but you wouldn't need to bother with the roller bridge though it would never hurt. I go mad on that trem all day long and it stays in tune no problem now.

When I was younger I always thought a semi was strictly for jazz and blues and never even tried one until a few years ago. I was a Les Paul guy my whole life. Since acquiring the Godin I sold the Les Paul I had. Mine has different pickups than yours. I use the Seymour Duncan SH-5 paired with a Pearly gates neck and with that combo in this guitar I can happily play any of my music genres including metal. Love the added airiness from the semi I will never part with it, unless someone steals it. Hope this info helps.

Hey there, thanks for the reply. Another Canadian hoser eh.

A triple play with a tremolo would sure be interesting. Your post reinforces that I need to get this nut adjusted. It also does something more. When I saw your post I was reminded that a moderator over at VGuitar forums is a huge bigsby fan. He runs Virtual software on a guitar with a bigsby and plays some old school surf music on it. Obviously he's figured out a way to make it work. Gives me more courage to not send it back based on the trem problems alone. I haven't done any reading over there for years but odds are they also have tips on dealing with this problem. However at this point it's obvious I have to get the nut adjusted. It is certainly causing some of the issues. Thanks again.