Does Finish Affect Tone/Volume That Much?

[ChrisN]

I have 2 Gibson ES 390s, one black (can't see wood grain) and one burst (can see something that looks like wood grain, but who knows). You can see examples here: https://reverb.com/marketplace?item_...hips_to=US_CON

I love the 390 but don't need 2 of them and so am going to sell one. I bought the burst first, when I couldn't find a black one, then of course a black one popped up right away so I got that, too. I like black and I'm lukewarm on the all-too-common Gibson burst, but admit that they did an amazing job - it's just beautiful. Anyway, I assumed all things were otherwise equal, so I'd sell the burst.

I'm tuning the burst tonight because it's been decommissioned for the past year while I played the black. Got it right and, while playing acoustically, said to myself several times, that sounds great, and it seems louder than the black. I then do a half-hour of A/B acoustic testing on the same music, and the burst seems more articulate/pronounced than the black, which sounds quieter, like it has a cover over it. By itself, the black always sounded OK, and I'd never A/B'd them before.

I look over both guitars. The burst's neck is clearcoated with nitro and you can read the s/n, made in USA easily, while the black is black and you can barely make out the s/n, while you can b-a-r-e-l-y see "made in USA" if you know where to look. Clearly, the black finish filled in the imprint, while the burst's clearcoat did not. I can easily see body woodgrain on the burst, none on the black. The black's coated, for sure, while the burst looks finished.

I wanted to keep the black and sell the burst (2x the $, as the black's been gigged), but the difference in sound is causing me to rethink that scheme - acoustic play is one reason I went for the hollow body 390. In the collective's experience, is it likely the case that the black finish is killing some volume/tone, relative to the burst? Or is it my imagination overly influenced by appearance?

I know there was a $400 or so premium for the burst, but assumed it was because it was prettier and a more difficult finish to execute, not because it was a better sounding guitar.

What say those with experience on this issue? The burst's on CL right now!

Thanks for any input.

[Jaden]

My opinion is finish doesn’t effect electric guitar tone but can work to improve a guitarist’s feel/ touch on an instrument and influence performance. Better performance can equal better tone via touch.

PS If one instrument feels better in your hands than the other, keep it and sell the other.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Jaden

My opinion is finish doesn’t effect electric guitar tone but can work to improve a guitarist’s feel/ touch on an instrument and influence performance. Better performance can equal better tone via touch.

PS If one instrument feels better in your hands than the other, keep it and sell the other.

Interesting. The wife got home and I had her face away from me while I A/B'd them for her (she really is a treasure). She didn't know which I had, just "1" or "2," and she blind-picked the burst as the better sounding guitar every time, BUT she was disturbed by what I interpreted as excessive overtones ("the sounds just kept going and running into each other on [the burst] , you're doing it too fast - play them both the same"). She was right - the burst generated more volume, clarity, and overtones, than the black.

If it's not finish affecting things, then maybe the burst's just one of the better ones off the line (or the black's one of the dogs, though it sounds fine by itself).

As for feel, they should be the same, but the black's had the finish taken off the back of the neck for ease of movement by a PO. It's nice, but now it feels a hair too thin, relative to the burst's untouched neck, so the burst wins on feel, too.

[radiofm74]

Originally Posted by Jaden

My opinion is finish doesn’t effect electric guitar tone but can work to improve a guitarist’s feel/ touch on an instrument and influence performance. Better performance can equal better tone via touch.

PS If one instrument feels better in your hands than the other, keep it and sell the other.

I agree 100%. I don’t believe that finish has an impact. Maybe the sunburst is just a better put-together instrument. And from your comments one can see that you’re leaning that way

[MikeBmusic]

You're comparing the acoustic tone, won't you be really playing these plugged in when it matters?

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by radiofm74

I agree 100%. I don’t believe that finish has an impact. Maybe the sunburst is just a better put-together instrument. And from your comments one can see that you’re leaning that way

The burst is attractive, to be sure, and the fuller feel of the finished neck was a surprise. It occurred to me overnight that the strings may be a factor. The burst was decommissioned with new strings, while the black's have been on "a while." If it matters with acoustics, it may matter with semi-acoustics. I pulled the CL ad, for now.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

You're comparing the acoustic tone, won't you be really playing these plugged in when it matters?

My "when it matters" for the 390 extends beyond plugged-in, as I also do enjoy just playing it like a compact acoustic, esp when I shouldn't be making too much noise. It's been great for that use, so I'm a little more focused on the acoustic tone. Mostly I'm surprised at the difference, followed by the "why?", but I do like the burst's sound, so now I've got to change the black's strings and see if that factors into the equation.

[muscmp]

wasn't it billy corgan who said blue guitars sound best?

play music!

[ChrisN]

I did find some info re: thickness of finish affects wood's ability to move, and therefore tone/volume. Didn't see anything suggesting Gibson's black finish is thicker, but the way it fills in the "Made in USA" suggests it is.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by muscmp

wasn't it billy corgan who said blue guitars sound best?

play music!

He said it was white.

[rwmct]

I don't believe the difference between these two finishes is affecting the sound. But that does not mean they are going to sound the same. I was just listening to one of the videos with GE Smith and (talking electrics) he was noting that every guitar sounds different, even two made on the same line at the same time. Who knows why?

If you like one better than the rest, it is a no brainer to keep that one, unless selling it will bring in appreciably more money and you need every cent of it.

[FrankHudson]

Well of course it's your choice, and as you're "dancing about architecture"--as we all do when trying to describe sound and feel, so we probably can't help you all that much.

I doubt the finish is causing any discernable difference in the sound, even unplugged. Yes, there are people who feel differently about that.

You've already mentioned different string sets at least in age and usage. That'd be one prime suspect, and one that two fresh sets of the same strings put on them both would help answer.


Minor setup things could change the sound a bit. Things like the height of the bridge vs tailpiece, but I see the 390 is has a trapeze tailpiece. Pickup height and magnet strength could also impact sound with their field, even when the guitar is unplugged. P90s aren't as problematic as some Fender single coils, but it's another thing to consider. Nut slots also could be better cut on one over another, though you don't mention any of the symptoms of a one that surely needs a setup fix (like buzzes, bad action, or sticky tuning).

The individual pieces of wood (even with a laminated body) could lend some inherent differences in sound. That's something you can't change. If it was a set of Fender bolt-on necks, you could do something about that, but it's not. If they are same model and year (are they?) it's unlikely that other small, changeable things (bridge material, tuners, nut) are different.

Since you seem to like the black one for looks, and wanted black (and might want a black one again if you sell it), I'd encourage you to make sure that those little things are "right" or "the same" on the sunburst. Certainly start with strings.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Anyway, I assumed all things were otherwise equal,


In the collective's experience, is it likely the case that the black finish is killing some volume/tone, relative to the burst? Or is it my imagination overly influenced by appearance?[/B]

Virtually every single aspect of the construction of a guitar effects the sound: So is it possible that a different finnish will affect the sound ??. Yes it is theoretically possible. But that is the wrong question, or perhaps not the pertinent question, which is how much does it affect the sound and is it discernable ?


Also your first assumption is mistaken all things are never "otherwise equal" between two different guitars (even with the same finish). Since every single aspect of construction and specific individual materials involved affects sound AND every single individual guitar is a different construct (involving multiple instances of variation) from different specific cuts of wood to different assembly instance,s thus there is no otherwise equal... For example no two cuts of sides, backs, or tops from the same block of wood, will have the same grain pattern

So no it is not likely the finish.. It is likely that the totality of the combination of every other variable aspect of construction and material is causing the difference in sound, and any difference in specific finnish is likely not discernable.

[Bob Womack]

A couple of notes:
1. There are variances between examples of Gibson guitars because they are largely hand-made. You could line up three examples finished the same color and still hear differences. It's just the nature of the beast. Borrowing from Scrooge, "You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There’s more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!” Soomthin' in there makes a difference and I think between examples, finish is the least causative factor.

2. When my wife bought me an ES-335, I wanted the guitar that sounded the best of all of the ones I was exposed to, and there were about ten. I liked the looks of a classic sunburst but a tranparent cherry one talked to me. For me, sound and playability trump looks in the end.

Bob

[ghostnote]

I've seen this question debated on other forums to the point of great anger and name-calling. I never saw any conclusive answer, just opinions, like this : In my opinion, there's no effect on electric tone from the finish. Who knows why they sound different? Why does the random cheap guitar sound better than a random expensive one? We know that happens, and it isn't the finish in that case, either. I'm baffled, but I believe what you're hearing.