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  #1  
Old 11-03-2018, 10:58 PM
nuttyprof nuttyprof is offline
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Default Midi thoughts?

Anyone have experience with using midi live?

As I'm reading about the Roland gr55, it seems like it's pretty much useless in a live situation due to latency and ghost notes.
The Roland vg99 seems interesting though. I was thinking of getting a modeling Amp, but it looks like the vg99 is a better way to get modeled guitar and Amp sounds. The unit is huge though.

So in the end, I'm wondering if midi is over my head. I mainly want to play a little bit at church. Nothing crazy, nothing ground breaking...

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2018, 05:26 AM
kramster kramster is offline
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There are those pesky ghost notes... live might be a little tuff...finger picking (not real fast) with some orchestral strings coming in seemed to work best...didnt have a VG99 (yet) so don't know on that one.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:10 AM
Nymuso Nymuso is offline
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I have in the past. I saw it as a not fully evolved technology that I got tired of messing with. I recently played the current iteration of guitar MIDI at a friend's house, and remain unimpressed.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:43 AM
121 121 is offline
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Back in the mid 80's I had a Casio 510 guitar with Midi capabilities.
It was fun to fool around with for awhile but I was never happy with the results when trying to apply it as an accompaniment to music. There was too much delay with most instrument sounds. I do recall Banjo and Trumpet were two that seemed to react the best, but I could trigger those just as easily on my Casio keyboard.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2018, 12:23 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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VG-99 is NOT a guitar-to-MIDI device per se, but uses a processor for each string to "shape" the strings sound into something else. The GR-55 is a true pitch-to-MIDI interface.

Like all things, it takes practice and experimenting. Certain patches work better with certain sensitivity levels. Also technique plays a HUGE role in how cleanly the unit tracks. Ghost notes are more a function of the player accidentally 'pinching' a harmonic, or causing excessive string noise. I owned a VG-8, VG-88, and VG-99 and there's zero latency because it's a guitar and amp modeler, not a MIDI converter. The GR-55 is Roland's fastest converter. You get the hang of playing slightly 'in front' of the beat. It also cleans up your technique. In the hands of Gundy Keller, Alex Hutchings, and Burr Johnson, the effects are nothing short of amazing.

The only tracking issues with GR-55 may be with the low E and A strings, but even then for what I use it for, it's plenty fast. Also a piezo hex pickup will respond a bit faster than a mag hex and give better acoustic modeling sounds, but the mag hex will give you better modeled electric and amp sounds.
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Old 11-04-2018, 01:23 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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Yes, I have 20+ years experience with this.

For the vast majority of guitarists, I recommend going NOT with MIDI but instead with Roland's COSM technology, embodied in the Virtual Guitar (VG) series.

As others have mentioned, the process of converting pitch to MIDI is not currently super precise out of the box. The guitar is probably one of the worst instruments to use as a MIDI controller. All the little resonances and response quirks we find so valuable in defining the sound of a guitar, and little playing techniques that bring life to our playing - these confuse the heck out of pitch detection technology.

IF you try MIDI guitar, you will probably have to work for many months to clean up your playing. All the little brushes of a string or unintentional glisses can result in random notes being triggered. Plus, everyone always tries to BEND a piano sound (hint, it really doesn't work musically!).

The best MIDI 'guitar' controller (the SynthAxe) actually produced no sound, only MIDI messages. But guitarists weren't interested in that approach.

Using COSM, each string's signal is analyzed and filtered/reconstructed in a sophisticated method. There is no pitch detection, no practical latency, no glitches or weird noises. And you don't need to adjust your technique!
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Old 11-04-2018, 01:27 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Default Midi thoughts?

Guitar-cable-amp (maybe a stompbox if the amp doesn't have built-in trem) gets me all the tones I'm ever likely to need - and I try not to think about MIDI...
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  #8  
Old 11-04-2018, 06:24 PM
Davis Webb Davis Webb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymuso View Post
I have in the past. I saw it as a not fully evolved technology that I got tired of messing with. I recently played the current iteration of guitar MIDI at a friend's house, and remain unimpressed.
Yes, the same. But the 99 might fit the bill, its not suffering from that problem.

The GR55 is hard to love, I wanted to love it, I have owned 2. I sold 1, relented bought another, sold it.

When you try to get into the flow and just play, it fights you.

Try the VG...much better.

Gordon Currie is right on the money here.
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  #9  
Old 11-04-2018, 07:38 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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The fastest pitch-to-MIDI unit I ever used was the AXON. The company however is now defunct, and Yamaha bought the technology, but as of now has done nothing with it. But because it read the transient attack of the string, it could not only detect pitch, but also general location the string was struck with the pick, up to 3 zones. That meant you could change any parameter - such as patch, effect, etc.. simply by picking at a different part of the string. You could also divide the fretboard horizontally and vertically, which gave an enormous amount of control of MIDI instruments -basically a whole band on the guitar!

The VG family is great in my opinion, but again should not be mistaken for MIDI. It is basically a polyphonic effects processor and modeler. So you'll be limited to whatever "modeled" synth sounds. The modeled guitars range from pretty darn good (especially the Rickenbacker models) to meh (banjo) to passable and even OK in a live bar setting (acoustic models).

As someone who actually used a GR-33 and now GR-55 in a live setting, I feel it works pretty well. The toughest patches to control are the percussive instruments like marimba, piano, xylophone, vibraphone, harpsichord. But it's nothing that a little practice can't fix. For wind and string instruments I think it works amazing. You can adjust sensitivity levels for each patch, so that with piano for example, I adjust it relatively low and use a stronger attack. Someone mentioned you can't bend a piano note, but you can program the path to "roll" to the bent note instead of a "bend", and it sounds pretty good to me - like a blues solo on piano would.

With the GR-55, you can have 4 instruments at one time - the guitar's own signal, the COSM "modeled" guitar and amp/mic signal, and 2 MIDI patches. You can even do crazy things like auto-retune your guitar to DADGAD, and have the MIDI channels play at a different step above or below the guitar note, in tune with the key of your choice. And the GR-55 has MIDI out, allowing you to control other MIDI devices as well. I used to run a VG-88 and GR-33, which could get a bit hectic on stage, but on the GR-55 I just program both MIDI and COSM guitar on the same patch, and use the controls on the guitar to turn either on or off - a lot simpler.


As to tracking - I can pick relatively fast, and have no serious issues with tracking. Yes, sloppy playing will result in ghost notes. But why play sloppy? I think it's better to learn how to cleanly articulate notes and mitigate unwanted notes. Not easy, but not exactly impossible either. Then again, I come from 80s shred where alternate-picked, one note at a time, rolling scalar lines were the norm, and to do so cleanly at high volume and high gain meant learning to selectively prevent unwanted strings from ringing. Or if you play or own one of these uber-responsive, high end boutique acoustic guitars, you know that it takes a certain technique to play cleanly and control the thing - it can sound pretty bad if you can't. And that is not limiting - it's the opposite, as once your technique improves you're then able to take advantage of that responsiveness and sensitivity, and even exploit it. If you're expecting to play a loose shuffle, with a piano patch, then absolutely not - learn how to play keyboards. To me, the possibilities far outweigh the limitations. It's not for everyone, but it is a lot of fun.

Again, check out the three aforementioned names on YouTube. I think you'll be pretty amazed what can be done.
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  #10  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:34 PM
Dru Edwards Dru Edwards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
Guitar-cable-amp (maybe a stompbox if the amp doesn't have built-in trem) gets me all the tones I'm ever likely to need - and I try not to think about MIDI...
My rig has gotten simpler over the years. I now have a pedal board before the amp but I really only use an OD pedal (Soul Food) and sometimes Delay. No more rack. I never used MIDI though.
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  #11  
Old 11-05-2018, 01:12 PM
Davis Webb Davis Webb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
The fastest pitch-to-MIDI unit I ever used was the AXON. The company however is now defunct, and Yamaha bought the technology, but as of now has done nothing with it. But because it read the transient attack of the string, it could not only detect pitch, but also general location the string was struck with the pick, up to 3 zones. That meant you could change any parameter - such as patch, effect, etc.. simply by picking at a different part of the string. You could also divide the fretboard horizontally and vertically, which gave an enormous amount of control of MIDI instruments -basically a whole band on the guitar!

The VG family is great in my opinion, but again should not be mistaken for MIDI. It is basically a polyphonic effects processor and modeler. So you'll be limited to whatever "modeled" synth sounds. The modeled guitars range from pretty darn good (especially the Rickenbacker models) to meh (banjo) to passable and even OK in a live bar setting (acoustic models).

As someone who actually used a GR-33 and now GR-55 in a live setting, I feel it works pretty well. The toughest patches to control are the percussive instruments like marimba, piano, xylophone, vibraphone, harpsichord. But it's nothing that a little practice can't fix. For wind and string instruments I think it works amazing. You can adjust sensitivity levels for each patch, so that with piano for example, I adjust it relatively low and use a stronger attack. Someone mentioned you can't bend a piano note, but you can program the path to "roll" to the bent note instead of a "bend", and it sounds pretty good to me - like a blues solo on piano would.

With the GR-55, you can have 4 instruments at one time - the guitar's own signal, the COSM "modeled" guitar and amp/mic signal, and 2 MIDI patches. You can even do crazy things like auto-retune your guitar to DADGAD, and have the MIDI channels play at a different step above or below the guitar note, in tune with the key of your choice. And the GR-55 has MIDI out, allowing you to control other MIDI devices as well. I used to run a VG-88 and GR-33, which could get a bit hectic on stage, but on the GR-55 I just program both MIDI and COSM guitar on the same patch, and use the controls on the guitar to turn either on or off - a lot simpler.


As to tracking - I can pick relatively fast, and have no serious issues with tracking. Yes, sloppy playing will result in ghost notes. But why play sloppy? I think it's better to learn how to cleanly articulate notes and mitigate unwanted notes. Not easy, but not exactly impossible either. Then again, I come from 80s shred where alternate-picked, one note at a time, rolling scalar lines were the norm, and to do so cleanly at high volume and high gain meant learning to selectively prevent unwanted strings from ringing. Or if you play or own one of these uber-responsive, high end boutique acoustic guitars, you know that it takes a certain technique to play cleanly and control the thing - it can sound pretty bad if you can't. And that is not limiting - it's the opposite, as once your technique improves you're then able to take advantage of that responsiveness and sensitivity, and even exploit it. If you're expecting to play a loose shuffle, with a piano patch, then absolutely not - learn how to play keyboards. To me, the possibilities far outweigh the limitations. It's not for everyone, but it is a lot of fun.

Again, check out the three aforementioned names on YouTube. I think you'll be pretty amazed what can be done.
Pat Metheny in "Are You Going With Me?" is a classic tasteful use of the GR33 voice.
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  #12  
Old 11-05-2018, 10:28 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis Webb View Post
Pat Metheny in "Are You Going With Me?" is a classic tasteful use of the GR33 voice.
Forgot about Metheny... will have to revisit his MIDI work.

Another musician - Alan Holdsworth - was amazing on synth guitar, though his technique was nothing short of impeccable.
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  #13  
Old 12-26-2018, 06:41 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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What about Fishman Triple Play. I use it at home and never used it live before but there's no reason I wouldn't. Though the idea of needing to take a laptop to stage is a bother for some I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Oh and it's wireless!
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  #14  
Old 12-29-2018, 03:47 AM
Hurricane Ramon Hurricane Ramon is offline
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Cool It's A Question Of Player Technique

The complaints of [ Ghost Notes ] IMHO come from none midi payers who try to attempt playing one for the first time or when a newbie midi guitar player
makes them usually narrows down the reason of why they get so many of them .

When playing a midi voice the thing to realize is this :
  • Finger Style player complain the least
  • Flat Picker complain the most
  • You usually don't bend piano voices that can give off Ghosties
  • Percussion same as piano

You must play clean or you will trigger Ghost Notes plainly stated .

Finger style players swear by them , they excel on midi guitar .

I've had my midi set up since 1995/6 I chose finger style before I got a midi set up :
  1. Godin LGXSA midi , electric . acoustic electric <====<<<- Sexy thing
  2. Roland GR33 midi guitar synth module <====<<<- One Bad Boy



Some say the GR33 is among the best of the line over all .

I like mine a lot . Purchased them as a Package Deal $1700.00 both pieces
in 1995/6 came a hard shell case for the LGXSA .

EZ :

HR
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Old 12-29-2018, 11:01 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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I'll agree with HR that bare finger players have an advantage when playing MIDI guitar (as they do when playing slide) as right hand finger muting can be a big help.

However, flat-pickers like myself can cope too. I have to mute with the left hand and with my right hand palm, even when I'm not driving a MIDI pickup. I will use a scrunchy or designed guitar mute near the nut when playing passages without open notes. I also favor coated Elixir electric strings to reduce finger noise.

For a sloppy player like myself, using a MIDI pickup is a teaching device as well as compositional tool.
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