[Deleted Thread]

[lodi_55]

Nylon have a signature and tone all their own. I play nylon 90% of the time (two Taylor crossovers).

The good news is that many guitar shops will have a nylon section with classical , flamenco and crossovers.

As always, go play as many as you can!

[TRose]

I’m on a similar journey as yours. Here is that I’ve learned: a flamenco guitar is made to play while standing and with other instruments. Thus it is usually has a thinner body and is braced for volume- not to optimize individual notes. A classical is made to have more refined notes but usually Inst played in a “flamenco band” setting. Classicals are typically made with a 650mm scale and 52mm nut but can be found in a multitude of scale lengths and nut widths. The span between thumb and pinky and help you determine what scale length ma be more comfortable for you.
Which strings to use is a whole new universe of possibilities! And questions.
Good luck and enjoy!

[JohnW63]

Alto is selling these B-stocks for $399 (normally $699)

Ah, MAN! I don't need another guitar, but that is a great deal. I'll go play my Yamaha to fend off the Guitar Deal GAS.

[kbraker]

I have this. it’s more of a crossover with a more narrow nut width akin to a 1 3/4 like a regular acoustic. The electronics are great. But, the onboard tuner takes a bit to get used to...


http://www.ibanez.com/products/u_ag_...=69&color=CL01

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by TRose

I’m on a similar journey as yours. Here is that I’ve learned: a flamenco guitar is made to play while standing and with other instruments. Thus it is usually has a thinner body and is braced for volume- not to optimize individual notes. A classical is made to have more refined notes but usually Inst played in a “flamenco band” setting. Classicals are typically made with a 650mm scale and 52mm nut but can be found in a multitude of scale lengths and nut widths. The span between thumb and pinky and help you determine what scale length ma be more comfortable for you.
Which strings to use is a whole new universe of possibilities! And questions.
Good luck and enjoy!

Other than the Gipsy Kings, whose flamenco credentials are at the margin, you'll be hard pressed to find standing flamenco guitar players.

hunter

[sirwhale]

Originally Posted by printer2

Usually built lighter than a classical which results in less sustain so the notes get out of the way for the next one. The action is set lower as some string buzz is part of the sound. Has a protective 'pick guard' on both sides of the sound hole to protect the top from getting beat up.

Flamenco guitars tend to have more punch and sharper attack than a classical. They have lower action and with more "edge" to the tone. Sustain can be shorter or longer depending on the guitar you pick up. I play blues and folk on my flamenco guitar and I find classical guitars to sound too clean and correct for me. You will also find that flamenco guitars are built so the strings are closer to the body (not talking about action here, they are just closer whether you have high or low action), so that flamenco guitarists can tap on the top easier.

Classical guitars have a deeper body. The scale and nut widths are standard in both at 650mm and 52mm. And zHunter mentions above, I have never seen a flamenco player stood up whilst playing, and I live in Spain, so I've seen a few of them.

Despite people suggesting that string buzz is part of the sound, I would say it is something I can get if I want it, but really, my action is a flamenco action and I can only get string buzz if I really dig in hard. Classical guitars tend to have very high action because they want to be able to produce a wide range of dynamics without ever the risk of getting a buzz.

From what I read on the del camp forum, the serious classical guitar players tend to prefer nylon strings as they seem to be able to get more out of them tone wise (with a lot of practice of course), where as lots of flamenco guitars come with fluorocarbon strings. Obviously there are classical players that use carbon strings too, and flamenco players that use nylon. I prefer carbon.

Traditional flamenco guitars use spruce tops and cypress for the back and sides which normally gives a punchy and bright tone. This is called a "blanca".

There are now more modern variations which use rosewood (or similar) back and sides, which is a "negra". This gives the guitar more projection, more sustain, and deeper low end. I would say that this is the most versatile flamenco guitar, and what I like best.

Of course, there will be a lot of variation within each type of flamenco guitar depending on the builder.

Of all the flamenco guitars I have tried, Camps is my favourite brand. The one Taylor nylon crossover I managed to try didn't impress me much.

To add my personal opinion, I would say that most people looking to play a nylon string should try flamenco guitars before settling on a classical.

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Other than the Gipsy Kings, whose flamenco credentials are at the margin, you'll be hard pressed to find standing flamenco guitar players.

hunter

True. But there are very few "real" flamenco guitarists outside of Spain. Most are considered to be more latin-inspired, Nuevo flamenco, etc. There are far more of those who prefer to stand. I still prefer to sit while playing nylon strings, and stand for electric. But I recently saw Cordoba artist Ben Woods standing in performance with his 55FCE and he's great. Is he a "real" flamenco puro? Nah. But then again, neither are 99.999% of other guitar players who buy flamenco guitars. I prefer flamenco guitars over classical, and I don't play real flamenco either. I have stood to play during performances, but I prefer the stability and control of sitting when playing most acoustics.

[Pat Foster]

Another reason for the wider necks on classical guitars is that because of the lower string tension, the strings are displaced more when plucked and need more space for clean tone.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Red_Label

True. But there are very few "real" flamenco guitarists outside of Spain. Most are considered to be more latin-inspired, Nuevo flamenco, etc. There are far more of those who prefer to stand. I still prefer to sit while playing nylon strings, and stand for electric. But I recently saw Cordoba artist Ben Woods standing in performance with his 55FCE and he's great. Is he a "real" flamenco puro? Nah. But then again, neither are 99.999% of other guitar players who buy flamenco guitars. I prefer flamenco guitars over classical, and I don't play real flamenco either. I have stood to play during performances, but I prefer the stability and control of sitting when playing most acoustics.

So flamenco guitars are thinner because they are made to be played standing?

hunter

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by zhunter

So flamenco guitars are thinner because they are made to be played standing?

hunter

Authentic flamenco guitars played in the pure flamenco form of the genre arent. I think that the Gypsy Kings and other such "world music" artists have popularized standing and thinner bodies.

I really liked the tone and comfort of the thin-bodied Cordoba FCWE and pair of 55FCEs that I gigged. But I have small hands and the necks on the Spanish-made Cordobas were chunkier than the necks on the Chinese ones. So that's why I let mine go. If I could have the same exact neck profile that's on the GK Pros, put on the 55FCEs... I'd go back to them. As it stands, I'm willing to sacrifice the comfort of thinner body for the comfort of smaller neck profile.

[zhunter]

"Authentic" flamenco guitars existed before there was a nuevo flamenco concept. Or Gypsy Kings etc. And generally flamenco guitars, without regard to the purity of end use, are typically shallower bodied. They were thinner long before there was any fashion for standing and playing and remain so today regardless of end use.

The Cordoba models you mention are specialized thinline instruments made first and foremost to be used amplified with thin bodies to aid in resisting feedback at high volumes. They are thinner than a typical flamenco. And while they can be played unplugged, they are electric instruments.

hunter

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by zhunter

"Authentic" flamenco guitars existed before there was a nuevo flamenco concept. Or Gypsy Kings etc. And generally flamenco guitars, without regard to the purity of end use, are typically shallower bodied. They were thinner long before there was any fashion for standing and playing and remain so today regardless of end use.

The Cordoba models you mention are specialized thinline instruments made first and foremost to be used amplified with thin bodies to aid in resisting feedback at high volumes. They are thinner than a typical flamenco. And while they can be played unplugged, they are electric instruments.

hunter

Was your short post/question an attempt to bait me, or trip me up? You're splitting hairs. Real flamenco guitars are far closer to classicals in depth of body, than they are to the thin bodied Cordobas. The primary differences between real flamencos and classicals is how lightly/heavily they're braced and how low the action is set/tolerance for fret buzz. Used to be cypress versus rosewood bodies as well, until Paco and others made it more popular to play flamenco on negras.

IMO the thin bodied Cordoba models aren't focused on feedback reduction as much as player comfort. I can slap a rubber soundhole cover on any acoustic/electric to kill feedback. The fact of the matter is, thin Cordobas sound surprisingly similar to their thicker bodied models unplugged. The main difference is bass response and some volume. I've owned and played most mid-high end Cordobas unplugged, all the way up to big outdoor gigs through large PA systems. Feedback was rarely a concern. There was no difference in that regard between the thin and thick bodies. The Fishman onboard electronics do an amazing job at feedback suppression when used properly. So much so, that I've never used my soundhole plug.

[SBalderrama]

The Cordoba GKs are really good starting nylon sufficient for all classical/flamenco styles. Many "crossovers" have too narrow of necks and radiused fretboards, while making them somewhat more comfortable for steel string players tend to inhibit playing with fingers properly IMO. Taylor's Nylons are built more like steel stringers and IMO just feel too heavy and stiff, and the same is kindof true of the Yamaha NCX etc, but then I am a Flamenco student and am used to very light feeling Flamenco guitars. I have a couple of Cordoba GK's and they work nicely. The neck is slightly narrower than a full classical/flamenco but still works nicely for classical/flamenco techniques. The thin bodied Cordobas are nice to play but as mentioned don't sound as good acoustically.

The Yamaha flamencos you can get for $350 or so are better than they ought to be for that price, but have the body depth and build more of a classical than a true flamenco. Still nice though, but the Cordoba GK's are better albeit twice the price. That used one mentioned above is a great deal.

As mentioned a "true" flamenco guitar will have a slightly thinner body than a classical, a lighter build and bracing pattern, a different neck angle to bring the strings closer to the soundboard, lower action to the frets, all targeted to producing a sound that is brighter, louder, more percussive, and with less sustain than a true classical. Less sustain keeps the rasgueos from running together. Also clear pickguards usually so Flamencos can golpe without damage. True flamenco guitars are great "crossovers" though, better guitars in my experience than any of those that call themselves crossovers.

I own a GK Studios, an Esteve Flamenco, a Conde Hermanos flamenco, an Alvarez Yairi classical, Yamaha CG171F, and a Yamaha NCX for reference.

[Mbroady]

Dont know much about Nylon string guitars but the ones that sounded good to my ears all had cedar tops. Makes sense since most nylon string guitars are not played with a pick, and cedar responds well to a lighter touch.

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

Dont know much about Nylon string guitars but the ones that sounded good to my ears all had cedar tops. Makes sense since most nylon string guitars are not played with a pick, and cedar responds well to a lighter touch.

Everyone's tonal preferences are different, because I've found that I no longer prefer the tone of cedar. I like the bright, articulate clarity of spruce. Cedar is more somber. Cedar does sound thicker though of course. But I like the snappy punch of spruce