The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 09-20-2020, 06:07 AM
Kevin G String Kevin G String is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: County Durham, England
Posts: 337
Default knowing which beat you're on in the bar

Hi folks, I hope you're all well.

I've realised for a long time the importance of knowing where you are in the bar. But it was always something I was going to look at tomorrow. So I mostly improvise, but I usually have no concept of where I am in the bar or where in the progression I am, in terms of the bar number.

I have taken some steps this morning to count each beat. Fairly obvious. But what I'd found, more so in the past, is that all is fine and dandy until you begin to introduce rests and/or syncopation.

I feel like I've made a bit of a break through recently and more specifically this morning.

I've come across that thing where you keep your hand moving in either 8ths or 16ths and just strike the notes at will. I can do that kind of OK but it can be tricky with rests. So you're either striking the air or striking the strings.

Has anyone any other suggestions to help in this area? Is this a skill which is worth pursuing? Would be nice to place notes exactly and create space of specific lengths of time. Or am I barking up the work tree all together?

Many thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-20-2020, 07:53 AM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

Read up on time signatures, for example:

https://www.libertyparkmusic.com/mus...me-signatures/

and measures.

Playing the timing as indicated in a score can be quite easy or pretty difficult depending on the note values indicated. Fortunately you will usually come across simpler to read timing. For the difficult stuff you may need to work on timing out the note values beat by beat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNeEZhpUY9o
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-20-2020, 08:54 AM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin G String View Post
Hi folks, I hope you're all well.

I've realised for a long time the importance of knowing where you are in the bar. But it was always something I was going to look at tomorrow. So I mostly improvise, but I usually have no concept of where I am in the bar or where in the progression I am, in terms of the bar number.

I have taken some steps this morning to count each beat. Fairly obvious. But what I'd found, more so in the past, is that all is fine and dandy until you begin to introduce rests and/or syncopation.

I feel like I've made a bit of a break through recently and more specifically this morning.

I've come across that thing where you keep your hand moving in either 8ths or 16ths and just strike the notes at will. I can do that kind of OK but it can be tricky with rests. So you're either striking the air or striking the strings.

Has anyone any other suggestions to help in this area? Is this a skill which is worth pursuing? Would be nice to place notes exactly and create space of specific lengths of time. Or am I barking up the work tree all together?

Many thanks
I'm not sure what it is exactly that you are asking for help with.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-20-2020, 09:23 AM
MikeB1 MikeB1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 447
Default Robert Starer - "Rhythmic Training"

HI Kevin,

If you want to be able to keep time with the music as it is written, I have found this little book to be a great starter.

It starts out with very simple exercises and slowly increases the complexity.

So you can take your time.

It will teach you all the nomenclature of time signatures and rests.

Amazon has it for $10.

Here is a link:

https://www.amazon.com/Rhythmic-Trai...0614830&sr=8-2
__________________
Mike B.
______________
Frameworks, Nylon, 2022
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-20-2020, 10:05 AM
Kevin G String Kevin G String is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: County Durham, England
Posts: 337
Default

Thanks chaps.

I realise I have been a little vague. I understand time signatures and note values and sub divisions. So I could write a rhythm on a score in logic and follow that and play it in time to the metronome or drummer beat in chords.

What I struggle with is when I'm improvising lead/melody lines, the rhythmic element goes of the window. I kind of go into free form if you like. I can still play to the beat, it just that my concept of where I am in the piece/bar/section disappears.

It's like trying to pat my head and rub my stomach at the same time.

What I think I'll do is to play very simple lines comprising of single triads initially then gradually increase to complexity of the rhythm. See how that goes.

I can tap my foot when I play rhythm, but when I do single line stuff, my foot will often follow the rhythm of the line.

I can't think of a melody in my head and play it. I could play a rhythm though that I heard in my head.

Another rambling post, I hope that makes it easier to understand.

I'm on a lot of epilepsy medication which skews my perception. I don't realise it though, until someone points out that they don't understand what I'm trying to say. Sorry.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-20-2020, 11:17 AM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 513
Default

Something that helped me long ago was when I realized it was very hard for me to count the beats (out loud or in my head) while playing certain measures slowly. Counting shouldn’t be any musician’s ultimate goal, but I’ve found it to be worth the effort to gain that skill (just for those measures). And that effort is 100% mental: not losing your place in the counting, walking while chewing gum, etc. What was hard about it for me was that it felt like I had to go back to square one, like a writer who’s given the assignment of studying a book written for children. I’d much rather say, “Screw it,” back up a step or two to get a running start, dive in at full speed and push right through the measure in question. If you learn to count slowly through things you already play, that skill is very useful when you’re working out new material and aren't sure of the timing of your new ideas. You can always rely on recording for that (listening afterward to see if you're playing in time), but being able to keep part of your brain on the music and another part on the counting is a good skill for a musician to have.

I read an interview with Son House in which he criticized Charlie Patton for not keeping strict time. I got the impression he didn’t have the fondest memories of Patton, but it still surprised me, because a lot of those old blues guys, from the Delta to Piedmont, didn’t always play in strict time.
__________________
Resources for nylon-string guitarists. New soleá falseta collection: http://www.canteytoque.es/falsetacollectionNew_i.htm
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-20-2020, 11:37 AM
MartinGibsonFan MartinGibsonFan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: 'Sconsin
Posts: 833
Default

Is there any way to set up a drum machine to help get the time signature / beat?

I'm totally throwing this question up in the air and have no clue.

A drum machine might not help a simple 4/4 or 2/4 or 6/8 or 3/4 signature, but might help in more complex (jazz) situations.

MGF
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-20-2020, 11:58 AM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,301
Default

I don't know if this will be helpful, but when soloing or doing anything rhythmically complicated (once I've reached a certain level of practice on it, of course) is that I stop counting so much and start feeling the beat. It becomes more of a "pulse" than a strict rhythm, if that makes sense. Usually the main pulse is on one, but depending on the piece or your inclination it could be on two/four or something else. The pulse also can be a larger subdivision than a measure, kind of a macro time signature, if you will.

One particular piece was 4/4 but had occasional measure of 2/4. The keyboard player struggled a bit and was furiously counting. He asked how I had it memorized so quickly. It was because I just got into a pulse kind of "contained" the 2/4 measure. Rather than counting per se, it was more of a "long.... long.... short.. long....".

When soloing, my phrases tend to fit within that pulse. If the pulse is, say, two measures, I subdivide my runs into that pulse, or feel where a phrase crosses that pulse into the next one.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-20-2020, 01:58 PM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Albion
Posts: 1,220
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin G String View Post
Hi folks, I hope you're all well.

I've realised for a long time the importance of knowing where you are in the bar. But it was always something I was going to look at tomorrow. So I mostly improvise, but I usually have no concept of where I am in the bar or where in the progression I am, in terms of the bar number.

I have taken some steps this morning to count each beat. Fairly obvious. But what I'd found, more so in the past, is that all is fine and dandy until you begin to introduce rests and/or syncopation.

I feel like I've made a bit of a break through recently and more specifically this morning.

I've come across that thing where you keep your hand moving in either 8ths or 16ths and just strike the notes at will. I can do that kind of OK but it can be tricky with rests. So you're either striking the air or striking the strings.

Has anyone any other suggestions to help in this area? Is this a skill which is worth pursuing? Would be nice to place notes exactly and create space of specific lengths of time. Or am I barking up the work tree all together?

Many thanks
That's a great question, for me the answer is to hear the tune being played by the beats, for instance in 4/4 time there is usually a stress on the 1st beat and sometimes a lesser stress can be heard on the 3rd beat so as a finger picker I will play the bass strings louder on those strong beats, if I can play the third thumb beat slightly louder than the second then for blues and ragtime type playing I know where in the bar I am. Counting can be usefull when learning from written notation but to hear the tune of the beats I find it necessary to listen, and you can't do both . The fingers can be then used to play syncopated lines between the thumb beats and changing chords a half beat before the end of the bar is a great way to mark bar ends, doing that a few times will get the location of the last beat of a bar in your head, but do it too much and it just gets predictable.
It's also important to understand that music consists of a series of sentence like phrases, those phrases often come to a conclussion on the emphatically emphasised 1st beat of a new bar having started somewhere in the previous bar or two bars ,and sometimes they start on the strongest 1st beat of a bar, I find this easier to hear in songs as the singer will naturally sing a syllable on the 1st beat louder .
For example the following are all 1st beats Once...dressed...threw...in...Did...etc
With rests on the 1st beat it all gets a bit more difficult and I have to rely on the momentum of previous bars.
I also find it very usefull to tap my foot to the beats, my trumpet teacher at school stopped me tapping my foot but it's a really usefull habit to help keep time over rests and syncopated lines, it's not hard to tap almost silently and then physical body twitches help to mark otherwise silent beats, so in other words use your body to dance to the beat .
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-20-2020, 05:32 PM
Kyle215 Kyle215 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 659
Default

The app called Pro Metronome allows you to customize the sound of each beat. I like to set the one and three to a lower tone, to emulate the “boom chuck” sound. There is a customizable graphic for each beat also, so that each beat shows up in place within the bar. Probably other apps have similar features, that’s just the one I stumbled across.

The traditional pendulum style metronomes are more helpful to see where the 8ths and 16ths should fall, but I think the bar style is better to “see” the where you are in the song.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-21-2020, 03:37 AM
Kevin G String Kevin G String is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: County Durham, England
Posts: 337
Default

Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate it.

I have found and bought a book on my Kindle/iPad Pro: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...7-bcecda59cb4e

This is the best book I've seen on soloing. The emphasis is on rhythm. It's exactly what I've been looking for. It is about counting out loud and tapping your foot and ensuring that they line up with the click of the metronome. He talks about groove and feeling the beat.

You can stream and download the audio from a link at the beginning of the book. The website player is excellent.

It goes from very basic to quite advanced (to my understanding anyway).

Again many thanks. I looking forward to being able to play stuff in a more accurate way and to be able to repeat what I've just played. He includes a good section on motif ideas too.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-21-2020, 09:56 AM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North of the Golden Gate, South of the Redwoods, East of the Pacific and West of the Sierras
Posts: 10,571
Default

Glad you found a resource that will be helpful. When I first began tackling this issue, I had a teacher who would put me though exercises where I would tap my foot with each count for the time signature - and then over that I began to learn to clap my hands to account for the individual notes and the durations. It was maddening at first but it really helped me learn rhythm and tempo in relation to the beats and the bars. Hang in there with it and it will come in time.

Best,
Jayne
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:19 AM
Kevin G String Kevin G String is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: County Durham, England
Posts: 337
Default

Thanks Jayne, I've enjoyed doing the exercises today. I used to tap my foot a lot. But kind of got out of the habit. There was a time when I lost most of the movement in my right ankle, so I dropped it. Not sure why, I'm as happy tapping my left foot. But anyway, I can now move my right ankle again.

Where it fall apart for me is keeping the time and place once the gap is greater than a quarter note, particularly if it starts on an of beat. But it's nice to know I'm on my way to greater competence.

Another thing I like is that he has you counting scale degrees both by note name and scale degree.

The thing I'm finding is that, you get an exercise down and then it falls apart. Particularly after a moment of smugness. Funny how something can fall apart at 50bpm but you can play perfect at 70bpm.

But I like it when things go pear shaped, because it means that the unconscious goes to work in the background to put it right for you. Persistence is key.

Cheers

Last edited by Kevin G String; 09-21-2020 at 10:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-21-2020, 07:55 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 2,445
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin G String View Post
I can tap my foot when I play rhythm, but when I do single line stuff, my foot will often follow the rhythm of the line.
This right here is the core of the problem.

You need to work on getting your foot more independent of your fingers.

One thing that helped me way back was singing the line while tapping my foot so I could discern where each note existed within the bar. Somehow playing while tapping my foot was often a bigger challenge than singing. YMMV.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread)
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-22-2020, 12:58 AM
Kevin G String Kevin G String is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: County Durham, England
Posts: 337
Default

Thanks Gordon. I was playing single line stuff last night while tapping my foot and counting out loud. It was tough and I kept going off. But it was nice to place the notes where I wanted them rather than it being part chance. It’ll come.

Enjoying the exercises in that book.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=