How to pay Royality ?

[lw216316]

I hope this is in the right category...not sure where to post it.

Just out of curiosity -

How does one pay a royality on a song ?
Where would you find information on who to pay
and how to make payment ?

Also, curious,
(and I know this would vary greatly )
but I'm wondering what might be an example of how much
one royality payment might be for playing a song ?

Does anyone have a specific example ?
Is this something that would cost $1 , $5, $10 ......?

Would the payment vary depending on the size of the audience ?
....seems like that might get rather complicated to determine sometimes....

- Larry

[Lacks Focus]

I'm sure someone at ASCAP or BMI could tell you.

[lw216316]

I would not want to waste their time-
since I am just curious.

There was discussion in another topic
that caused me to wonder how it works and what it cost.

I thought maybe someone on the forum had experience and
could share.

I'm an 'advanced beginner amateur'
no one would pay to hear me play.

- Larry

[Bob Womack]

Contact the Harry Fox Agency. They handle licensing for over 27,000 music publishers. 'Tis a great place to start.

Bob

[RustyAxe]

Everything you need to know is on the Harry Fox Agency website. You can even pay online if it's something they handle. Rates are standardized. It's something like $.09 per song per recorded copy. So, if you were to record 100 copies of the song it would cost you nine bucks.

[lw216316]

I looked at the Fox site.
It does not seem to answer the type I had in mind.

Maybe some specific examples would help
(again - this is just out of curiosity- not a need to know-)


EXAMPLE ONE
Your friend is getting married and asked you to play your
guitar at his wedding.
You play one or more 'popular' / famous tunes -

Do you owe royalties ?

EXAMPLE TWO
You cover a famous song and post it on youtube ?
Do you owe royalites ?

EXAMPLE THREE
You get a gig playing at some local club-
You cover a lot of popular songs.
Do you owe royalties ?

EXAMPLE FOUR
You play at some local benefit to raise money for charity
and get paid nothing.
You play some popular tunes....do you owe royalties ?

I am just curious about those type of situations
and wonder how it works and what a typical cost might be.

...would like to hear from someone with experience who has
actually been through the process and could give a specific example.

- Larry

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by lw216316

EXAMPLE ONE
Your friend is getting married and asked you to play your
guitar at his wedding.
You play one or more 'popular' / famous tunes -

Those are performance royalties. Harry Fox deals with recording rights. There are at least 3 areas of rights, recordings, publishing and performing. ASCAP and BMI handle performance situations. I'm sure they could answer your questions, and the official answer is almost certainly "someone has to pay". The rules, as I understand them, are that the venue is responsible, not the performer. Generally, no one wants to deal with 1 song, venues get BMI/ASCAP blanket licenses. Does everyone pay? Of course not, and I suspect BMI/ASCAP won't get around to attending kids birthday parties and weddings looking for violators. Commercial venues like coffee houses and bars, and so on, do get "caught" and "asked" to pay fairly often.

[tbeltrans]

When I was in a road band playing clubs (supper clubs and the like), the clubs paid an annual fee to ASCAP and BMI that allowed bands they hired to play covers. When I played in a church band, the church paid an annual fee to whatever agency handles that side of the biz so that the leader could make copies of lead sheets and distribute them and so we could play "covers" of Christian pop tunes.

As for playing at a wedding (i.e. private affair), I don't know. I played at the actual wedding ceremony as a solo guitarist as a "hired gun" for a few years when I first moved to the Twin cities, but I don't recall that issue coming up at all. By then, I was no longer in the AF of M as an active member, so I was no longer dealing with union places to play.

An issue I would be curious about is how to make it legal when putting up a video of myself playing a cover on YouTube. Say, for example, I want to do a solo rendition of a well known standard. How would royalties be calculated for that? In a club, it is really on a performance basis, but on youTube, any time sombody clicks on the video, it plays. Anytime somebody downloads the video, there is absolutely no means of control as to who the video might be passed on to next and how many times it might be viewed. Any ideas on that?

Tony

[lw216316]

yes, it is the PERFORMANCE royalties I was curious about.

Thanks for the specific examples Tony -
you always have good / detailed answers
That was of special interest to me about the church performances.
What about the case where no copies of material are made
but an individual performs a 'sunday morning special' type of song ?
...something that might not necessarily be considered public domain ?
Are the songs you see in a typical church song book considered public domain ?


What got me started thinking about this was the recent
discussions about FRETKILLER...
He got booted from youtube....he was doing great covers...
Nadu was another player I liked who got zapped also.

- Larry

[riorider]

Originally Posted by lw216316

That was of special interest to me about the church performances.
What about the case where no copies of material are made
but an individual performs a 'sunday morning special' type of song ?
...something that might not necessarily be considered public domain ?
Are the songs you see in a typical church song book considered public domain ?- Larry

You can get an annual license from CCLI for the music they manage - the church can, the individual can, etc.

There are many songs which are public domain - I can't recall the length of the longest copyrights these days, but I think it's 50ish years. Anything (hymns, etc.) in the 19th century and before would be PD, then. Some songs, like Paul Stookey's "Wedding Song" (i.e. "There is Love") were put into the PD upon publishing - a "gift" from Stookey as it were.

If there's a song you like, it makes sense to me to try to compensate the songwriter, whether I need to copy lyrics or chords or just perform the song.

Not much detail here to help you, I realize, but you can google CCLI for more on them.

rr/Phil

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

An issue I would be curious about is how to make it legal when putting up a video of myself playing a cover on YouTube.

This stuff is all addressed if you check out ASCAP or BMI sites. The issue for artists is that there is no realistic mechanism in place for handling this. You can't really get an individual license for performing one tune. They want to deal with large scale licenses, such as licensing You Tube itself. Ideally (IMO), You Tube would negotiate a license, and pay the owners of tunes that are covered, much like composers, at least in theory, make money when their tunes are covered in a license bar or coffee house. You Tube would have to figure out how to cover those costs, by charging viewers, the artists who post covers, with ads... something. So far, You Tube has not done anything like this, it's currently the Wild West there, and musicians will just have to wait until the dust settles or jump into the gunfight early knowing you might get shot.

[lw216316]

Doug I apologize if I misunderstood your first mention of ASCAP and BMI

ASCAP and BMI handle performance situations. I'm sure they could answer your questions,

I thought you were suggesting I contact a PERSON - with my questions
and I did not want to waste their time with a curiosity rather than a real need to know.

It sounds like you are saying I can read the answers on their web sites
so I'll check into that.

This stuff is all addressed if you check out ASCAP or BMI sites

Still, it is nice to hear from people on the forum like Tony,
who have actual experience in the process.
Many times there are differences between the offical way of doing things and the real world.

From what I can see so far-
it seems like for the case of a song or two -
especially in a 'non profit' type of situation by an amateur
it just would not be worth the effort to try and get involved in royalties.

Maybe the stamp would cost more than the royalty payment !
AND
it would cost the company more to process a tiny payment than they would make on it
...they could end up losing money !

- Larry

[RustyAxe]

Legal technicalities aside, in the real world, unless you're selling 10,000 copies of your CD and making some real change, you won't ever have an issue. Some clubs might get hit by the ASCAP or BMI "police" if they aren't licensed (even that is relatively rare, despite the apocryphal tales to the contrary) but rarely will they pursue a performer. In general, there needs to be some real loss on the part of the copyright holder. And usually, some real profit to the infringing party. Besides, unless there's hope of recouping such losses and the legal fees it's unlikely the copyright holder will pursue it ... other than a simple cease and desist order.

Youtube, MySpace, Facebook, and whatnot may take down copyrighted content if someone complains, and even ban a poster, but again, it's unlikely you'd incur a penalty.

So, don't cut a platinum-selling, Grammy award winning cover of Que Sera Sera and you'll be fine ...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by lw216316

I thought you were suggesting I contact a PERSON - with my questions
and I did not want to waste their time with a curiosity rather than a real need to know.

Well, you could call them, but they'll probably either tell you they don't deal with licensing individual performers, or tell you "yes, of course someone has to pay", which is what you can learn on the web site or with a few searches.

Many times there are differences between the offical way of doing things and the real world....

it would cost the company more to process a tiny payment than they would make on it

Well, it might be better stated as the legal way to do it vs the underground, "hope you don't get caught" way. The issue of cost to you and the company is the rub right now, at least for things like You Tube. They don't want to deal with it on a pennies level. That doesn't mean its legal or that they don't care, it just means they'll say no to an individual request. I know someone who tried very hard to get publishing/performance rights agreements for a modest-scale website (i.e. hoping to be big, but smaller than You Tube). He's a lawyer, and basically called everyone and said "I'll send you money, I just want to be legal". They told him to go away, but of course also said "don't do it, or we'll catch you" :-)

Of course,we're talking two different things here. Internet perfrmances, You Tube and such is a mess, live performance is well-defined:

A venue can simply download the form from the web sites, pay the licensing fee, and they're done. That's simple, well-established, and again, it's the venue's responsibility, not the performers.

I've played many venues that have had issues with ASCAP/BMI. The Bazaar Cafe in San Francisco, for example, is a small coffee shop. They've been hassled so much that they now have signs up over the stage area:

BMI and ASCAP

Want My Dough

If You Play Covers

Out You Go

Burma Shave

[naccoachbob]

I wonder how the purchase of sheet music comes into play in this.
Say I buy a sheet, and play at a nursing home or church or wedding by myself, would that constitue having paid a royalty, since the publisher pays its artist?
I'm guessing that's how it works, 'cause I ain't really got a clue.
Just another wrench to throw into the engine.
Bob