Punch-in/comping without a click track?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Not if you don;t play the exact same tempo as the original, that's where the gaps (or overruns) happen. Quickpunch is simply dropping into & out of record for that section you're overdubbing. If you don't play it in the same amount of time, you will have a problem.



Hence, my advice to use a click & save the headache.

Humm we seem to be mis-communicating

Yes being able to play to the same tempo is important to have it sound correct agreed ... But that is true weather playing to a click OR playing to what has been recorded prior to what you want to overdub And ones ability to do so is a matter of ones internal sense of timing and rhythm (and is not a mater of the type of external timing reference ) and it makes little technical difference or advantage if your doing that to a click or to the music just prior to the overdub

Now if you are saying it may be easier to keep tempo to a click as opposed to keep tempo by staying "in the pocket" playing to music ?? well maybe so, maybe not, it is at best pretty subjective and individual ..


While the gaps and over runs could come from playing at the wrong tempo They can also come from simple mis-timing the overdub (even at the exact same tempo) because using a click does not guarantee you will stay at tempo let alone guarantee you will be coming in on the exact beat, if your internal timing is not great,,, and if you come in late you will "gap" the start of the punch in point and may overrun the punch out point ---click or not. And you will still have the "headache "

BUT this statement "Quickpunch is simply dropping into & out of record for that section you're overdubbing" is not correct ? Quick punch records from start of Pre Roll to end of Post Roll not the overdub selection
In other words if you set up the pre and post to start before the punch in point, and after the punch out point,, then it will record prior to and after,, the overdub section .. As demonstrated in my video

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

BUT this statement "Quickpunch is simply dropping into & out of record for that section you're overdubbing" is not correct ? Quick punch records from start of Pre Roll to end of Post Roll

That's not correct. QuickPunch starts playing at the pre-roll & plays through the post roll, but only records from the record in/out markers.

So, if you set the pre & post roll for 2 bars, then have the record in point set at measure 8 with the record out at measure 16 (timeline selection from bar 8-16), Pro Tools would operate in this manner: When you hit record, the song starts playing at bar 6 (2 bars of pre-roll), at bar 8 it drops into record and records through bar 16, where it drops out of record and continues to play through bar 18 (2 bars post roll).

That's the point of pre/post, it adds runway before & after your timeline and/or edit selection (depending on the transport mode).

So, what I'm saying, from years of experiencing doing overdubs in this manner, is that without a click, during that record time (bars 8-16 in our example), if the artist wavers in time, when you drop out of record at bar 17, you may or may not actually be at bar 17, beat 1. It depends on the artist's internal sense of time. Having the click track will help you keep locked in, so that you don't rush & end up with a small gap or slow down & cut off that last note or 2.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

That's not correct. QuickPunch starts playing at the pre-roll & plays through the post roll, but only records from the record in/out markers.

So, if you set the pre & post roll for 2 bars, then have the record in point set at measure 8 with the record out at measure 16 (timeline selection from bar 8-16), Pro Tools would operate in this manner: When you hit record, the song starts playing at bar 6 (2 bars of pre-roll), at bar 8 it drops into record and records through bar 16, where it drops out of record and continues to play through bar 18 (2 bars post roll).

That's the point of pre/post, it adds runway before & after your timeline and/or edit selection (depending on the transport mode).

So, what I'm saying, from years of experiencing doing overdubs in this manner, is that without a click, during that record time (bars 8-16 in our example), if the artist wavers in time, when you drop out of record at bar 17, you may or may not actually be at bar 17, beat 1. It depends on the artist's internal sense of time. Having the click track will help you keep locked in, so that you don't rush & end up with a small gap or slow down & cut off that last note or 2.

Actually Steve my statement about Quick Punch recording behavior is definitely correct, and you are simply mistaken. Or you are not understanding what I am saying.
I am not saying in Quick Punch that PT does not also playback what was previously recorded from the start of Pre Roll to the end of Post Roll.
What I am saying is PT also simultaneously records in the background, from start of Pre Roll to start of selection (then it comes to the foreground until end of selection ) and then again records in the background from end of selection, to end of Post Roll.

What you are talking about is the PT behavior in the other regular punch in recording methods, in which your are correct starts recording only at the beginning of the selection and stops at the end of the selection BUT again Quick Punch as I stated, definitely starts recording (in the background non destructively) from the start of the Pre Roll to end of the Post Roll

Now not debating the use of a click or how advisable it may be in many recording situations over QP ( that is a different discussion) Only responding to your statement about what the actual recording behavior of Quick Punch is.

I will post a new video as soon as I can get it uploaded to YT

OK here it is ..Now understand I am re recording intentionally way of time and voice to exaggerate what I am demonstrating
And of course the VO mic I am using on this demo sounds way different than the original vocal mic,, but in a normal quick punch situation , the timing and tempo would be much closer and the vocal mic would sound the same

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Actually Steve my statement about Quick Punch recording behavior is definitely correct, and you are simply mistaken. Or you are not understanding what I am saying.
I am not saying in Quick Punch that PT does not also playback what was previously recorded from the start of Pre Roll to the end of Post Roll.
What I am saying is PT also simultaneously records in the background, from start of Pre Roll to start of selection (then it comes to the foreground until end of selection ) and then again records in the background from end of selection, to end of Post Roll.

What you are talking about is the PT behavior in the other regular punch in recording methods, in which your are correct starts recording only at the beginning of the selection and stops at the end of the selection BUT again Quick Punch as I stated, definitely starts recording (in the background non destructively) from the start of the Pre Roll to end of the Post Roll

Now not debating the use of a click or how advisable it may be in many recording situations over QP ( that is a different discussion) Only responding to your statement about what the actual recording behavior of Quick Punch is.

I will post a new video as soon as I can get it uploaded to YT

OK here it is ..Now understand I am re recording intentionally way of time and voice to exaggerate what I am demonstrating
And of course the VO mic I am using on this demo sounds way different than the original vocal mic,, but in a normal quick punch situation , the timing and tempo would be much closer and the vocal mic would sound the same

Ah ha! Yes, You are correct. It captures all the way to the pre/post points. I just confirmed it too.

For some reason I thought that was the same as my handle size (2 secs). Was it ever just the handle length for quick punch? Why did I have that in my head?

Thanks for keeping me honest!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Ah ha! Yes, You are correct. It captures all the way to the pre/post points. I just confirmed it too.

For some reason I thought that was the same as my handle size (2 secs). Was it ever just the handle length for quick punch? Why did I have that in my head?

Thanks for keeping me honest!

Well my pleasure , it was kind fun offering something in PT you were not aware of , when it is virtually almost always the other way around


So according to this Sound on Sound article it's been that way since at least 2006 maybe before. he mentions both PT HD 7 and PT LE 7
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...ch-track-punch

Like you the author prior to the article said was not aware of the QP simultaneous playback and background recording feature

He explains PT is able to this by allocating two voices to the task
And perhaps it was the voice count limitations of older versions of PT that maybe caused many engineers to simply not use it in their work flow, given for example back then PT LE 7 only had 32 voices ??

On a personal note even though I have PT Ultimate for some reason , my Carbon interface cannot do "Track Punch"
Not a big deal since I only really do multiple takes and comp (with click ) or Quick Punch -- but still kinda weird given Carbon is an integrated Avid hardware and Pro Tools software product ???????????

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Well my pleasure , it was kind fun offering something in PT you were not aware of , when it is virtually almost always the other way around


So according to this Sound on Sound article it's been that way since at least 2006 maybe before. he mentions both PT HD 7 and PT LE 7
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...ch-track-punch

Like you the author prior to the article said was not aware of the QP simultaneous playback and background recording feature

He explains PT is able to this by allocating two voices to the task
And perhaps it was the voice count limitations of older versions of PT that maybe caused many engineers to simply not use it in their work flow, given for example back then PT LE 7 only had 32 voices ??

On a personal note even though I have PT Ultimate for some reason , my Carbon interface cannot do "Track Punch"
Not a big deal since I only really do multiple takes and comp (with click ) or Quick Punch -- but still kinda weird given Carbon is an integrated Avid hardware and Pro Tools software product ???????????

That’s interesting. I could have sworn someone else who I know said that they use Track Punch with their Carbon. I have to ask. I’ve been tempted by the Carbon at times, but I really like so many things about my Metric Halos.

And for fun, I believe the first version of Pro Tools I used was 4.3, right when they introduced the TDM Mix/Mix+/Mix3 PCI systems. Before that the TDM cards were NuBus based. The studio I was at had the Mix+ system. Then a few years later Avid came out with the 001 & I grabbed one for home to be able to do some work on things from the studio at my home.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

That’s interesting. I could have sworn someone else who I know said that they use Track Punch with their Carbon. I have to ask. I’ve been tempted by the Carbon at times, but I really like so many things about my Metric Halos.

And for fun, I believe the first version of Pro Tools I used was 4.3, right when they introduced the TDM Mix/Mix+/Mix3 PCI systems. Before that the TDM cards were NuBus based. The studio I was at had the Mix+ system. Then a few years later Avid came out with the 001 & I grabbed one for home to be able to do some work on things from the studio at my home.

I'll have to check also,, but I pretty sure I read somewhere no Track Punch with Carbon
My introduction to Pro Tools was a bit different. While on an 18 month long (2002 -2003) Construction job in Scarsdale NY, I became friends with a Post engineer who also used a TDM system. I got to record 10 songs in his world class, cover of Mix Magazine Post facility in Mid Town Manhattan.
After that I came back home to Wyoming spring 2003. I got a Digi 002 console and PT LE 5 or 6 (I think),,

OK found the Track Punch info on a thread on the DUC

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I’ve been tempted by the Carbon at times, but I really like so many things about my Metric Halos.

Just incase you did not know. currently you can get a 24 bit version of Carbon being sold as B stock for $3200 so an $1,000 discount And anecdotally I have yet to actually record using 32 bit

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...cond=PTCarbonB

Here is the explanation from Avids Mark Corbin

[Bob Womack]

There is a way to assemble tracks from multiple attempts without a metronome but there is also limitation to the process. Basically, you have to work from front to back and commit to each section as you go along. Now, I'll admit to being a professional audio editor so I do this based upon my editing skills, but anyone should be able to develop the skils. Here's how it works:

I build a group of tracks for this purpose. Say I am overdubbing guitar, it will be guitar tracks 1-10, for example. I set track 1 into record ready and begin my take. When I crash and burn, I stop down, grab the clip from take one, and slide it, in sync, down to track 10. Now I choose a place on that clip where I know I want to leave that clip and (non-destructively) edit to that place. Now I back up the track to give myself time to get my guitar arranged and begin to play along before the first track ends. I punch into record on track 1 again and play along to get adjusted to the playing style. The end point of take one arrives and I'm solo. I play until I crash and burn again. If I like track 2, I slide it down to track 9, and repeat the process until I get through. If I have any doubt about the viability of an edit between two chunks, I do the edit before I move on to the next section. At the end of the process I edit all the takes together because you don't want to walk out of the session without a finished take because resetting and trying to insert on another day would much, much harder.

With this system you have to commit as you go along, but that does help kill analysis paralysis. In my case, I am always working under a session deadline so there isn't all that much time available for analysis paralysis anyway.

Bob

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I'll have to check also,, but I pretty sure I read somewhere no Track Punch with Carbon
My introduction to Pro Tools was a bit different. While on an 18 month long (2002 -2003) Construction job in Scarsdale NY, I became friends with a Post engineer who also used a TDM system. I got to record 10 songs in his world class, cover of Mix Magazine Post facility in Mid Town Manhattan.
After that I came back home to Wyoming spring 2003. I got a Digi 002 console and PT LE 5 or 6 (I think),,

OK found the Track Punch info on a thread on the DUC

Well, that just ruined the idea of a Carbon for me. i rely on Destructive Record for my post work.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

There is a way to assemble tracks from multiple attempts without a metronome but there is also limitation to the process. Basically, you have to work from front to back and commit to each section as you go along. Now, I'll admit to being a professional audio editor so I do this based upon my editing skills, but anyone should be able to develop the skils. Here's how it works:

I build a group of tracks for this purpose. Say I am overdubbing guitar, it will be guitar tracks 1-10, for example. I set track 1 into record ready and begin my take. When I crash and burn, I stop down, grab the clip from take one, and slide it, in sync, down to track 10. Now I choose a place on that clip where I know I want to leave that clip and (non-destructively) edit to that place. Now I back up the track to give myself time to get my guitar arranged and begin to play along before the first track ends. I punch into record on track 1 again and play along to get adjusted to the playing style. The end point of take one arrives and I'm solo. I play until I crash and burn again. If I like track 2, I slide it down to track 9, and repeat the process until I get through. If I have any doubt about the viability of an edit between two chunks, I do the edit before I move on to the next section. At the end of the process I edit all the takes together because you don't want to walk out of the session without a finished take because resetting and trying to insert on another day would much, much harder.

With this system you have to commit as you go along, but that does help kill analysis paralysis. In my case, I am always working under a session deadline so there isn't all that much time available for analysis paralysis anyway.

Bob

That similar to how I do ADR & overdubs. I have a record track, a "Main" & "Alt" track and then a handful (10-12) of take tracks.

Record onto the record track, when done it goes into one of the take tracks.

Producer/director likes one - it goes into main or alt (i.e. 1st choice, 2nd choice).

Once a song is mostly there, the whole "takes" thing on a track doesn't work well. Too many drop-ins where you need to copy over other parts. It becomes a mess really quickly.

I even have a StreamDeck/SoundFlow script I can use to create all those tracks in 1 key press.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Well, that just ruined the idea of a Carbon for me. i rely on Destructive Record for my post work.

Destructive "Record " or Destructive Punch ?

Rt. clicking the Record button I have the option to select "Destructive" record just - Not Track Punch and Destructive Punch

My options list is for Record :: Normal, Loop, Destructive, QuickPunch

My options for Playback :: Playback , Half Speed, Prime for Playback, and Dynamic Transport
BUT Dynamic Transport screws up Quick Punch

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Destructive "Record " or Destructive Punch ?

Rt. clicking the Record button I have the option to select "Destructive" record just No Track Punch and no Destructive Punch

Both. I'm a bit surprised they would allow 1 but not the other.