#31
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Sorry if I misread anything you wrote. I'm not disagreeing with you, only disambiguating - to use a wikipedia term. Or trying to anyway. (If you misread me, that's my fault, not yours.) Quote:
Travis - in all the videos I've seen - seemed to never use his middle finger at all, let alone the ring. But he did develop incredible dexterity with just thumb and index. Quote:
And I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with the topic. I'm sure most people on this forum are folk or blues players, not classical players, but there is a lot of overlap in the technique (if not in the material), we can all learn something from classical techniques. Quote:
But what does seem to be the case is that that style doesn't generally require more than two fingers - and sometimes (as Travis proved later) - one finger might well be enough. (I'd guess the man he learned from might have used just thumb and index.) I was just surprised when you described the style as "developed in the late 20th century". I wasn't aware of any different style developed that late. Of course you're right it "combine[d] several techniques and musical influences", but - AFAIK - only in the sense that the players of that period copied many preceding players (recordings from the previous decades). The way you expressed it made it seem as if it was a new style, that was my point. (Sorry again if I misunderstood your point - I know you were being deliberately brief.) The acoustic fingerstyle of the 1960s and later was often a little different in sound from the styles recorded between the late 20s and late 50s that the later players copied, but mostly in quality of sound, not really in terms of fingering. There certainly were some new techniques developed alongside that "traditional" (alternating bass) approach - such as various percussive techniques and new tunings - but I'm guessing you weren't thinking of those. Right. Flamenco players also use all five - but that's another potential area of confusion of course. "All five fingers" includes the "thumb"! That's OK, but if we count the thumb as a 5th "finger", and then read someone saying they "only use two fingers" how do we know whether they mean "thumb and index", or "index and middle" (thumb being assumed)? Disambiguation does come in useful sometimes... Again, sorry to make such a meal of some very trivial distinctions. Hopefully there's some clarification amongst the verbosity here...
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#32
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Gary Davis said on several occasions that he played with only thumb and forefinger, sometimes adding, “because that’s all you need.” It seems clear he greatly developed that style, but I assume he wasn’t its creator. It sounds to me like Blind Blake played almost entirely with thumb and forefinger. You might remember that I was asking about West Coast Blues a while back. That’s the only one of his that I’ve spent some time studying, so maybe I shouldn’t be talking (you’ve studied more of his material than I have, as I recall), but it seems to me he used mostly thumb and forefinger. When I play West Coast Blues, I have to slip in a middle finger once in a while, and I assume he did, too, but nearly all of it can be played without the ring finger. Once you start using the thumb with a little more oomph on beats 2 and 4—enough to carry through to the trebles—, it’s surprising how much can be done with just thumb and forefinger. As you say, I haven’t heard anyone in the first half of the 20th century use their ring finger as part of their approach to playing guitar (to be clear: using it frequently and in American blues and folk music). Now then, there are plenty of old players I’ve never listened to, or maybe I’ve heard it done and haven’t noticed, so it’s just an educated guess. Quote:
Thanks for the response. I hope I haven’t given you the wrong impression, because I’ve respected your knowledge and experience from day one. If you disagree with anything I’ve written or something doesn’t make sense, feel free to point it out and I’ll do my best to respond (a little more nicely).
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#33
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Skip James, meanwhile (like Mississippi John Hurt) used thumb+2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVww5r4Nk0 (mainly index obviously, but plenty of middle there too.) Quote:
But then not many of the later players use their ring either - at least not when paying the alternating bass style. It would be different when acoustic fingerstylists play in a more arpeggiated style - i.e., more like a classical way of playing chords. IOW, maybe this comes down to the style of the music being played - specifically whether alternating bass is used. I know I have seen some beginners attempt alternating bass using their index instead of thumb on bass beats 2 and 4 - a real no-no! That might well be how a classically trained player might approach it, especially when bass notes occur on the 3rd string. But the whole idea of that style is the thumb leads, striking every beat. Get it right, and you really do only need one finger for most standard patterns; a second finger comes in when a treble line requires an additional note. The ring would only be used when a 4-string chord was required - and even then, a lot of those old players would just rake with the thumb (as those videos show). I.e., I guess you're right that the post 1960s players might choose to use the ring occasionally, perhaps to get a cleaner sound (for pretty folk styles ) than those thumb rakes (or index strums) you hear in the old blues tunes. One wouldn't have to be classically trained to think of that: it would make sense of you're arpeggiating a chord with 4 or more strings to allocate one finger per string as much as possible. (I'm thinking something like Paul Simon's Scarborough Fair, that he got from Martin Carthy. Here's Carthy in 1963, using thumb+3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I77MooeGMxI Obviously that's a much more classically-influenced style than "Travis picking"!)
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. Last edited by JonPR; 01-10-2021 at 06:13 AM. |
#34
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#35
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I guess I should have read through more of the discussion before posting that but it’s such a great tune I hope no one minds.
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#36
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I use thumb + index + middle + ring.
Thumb only for basses. IMR can play the three high strings (one finger per string), or IM can alternate on all 6 strings to play lines. Sometimes I cheat if it's simpler or for tone reason (eg I really like the tone of my R compared to I and M). Ll.
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Martin OM-28 1931 Authentic | Martin CEO-7 Taylor GS Mini Mahogany | Logan Custom Telecaster |
#37
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#38
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Like you said you started out, with the thumb and forefinger, lobster claw style. I've tried to do it differently, but honestly, just seems so foreign to me. But I don't finger-style much anymore and what I do do, it works very well for me.
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Mark |
#39
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I think I would have to disagree that three fingers are “required”. Not including your thumb (because it is a thumb, not a finger) plenty of people only use 2. I just got a course by Tommy Emanuel and he emphatically states he almost only only uses 2 fingers. Then of course there is Phil Keaggy. I also only use two fingers and a thumb. |
#40
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Same for me. My middle finger started to replace my index finger over time. |
#41
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Wes Montgomery played everything with his thumb .
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#42
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That’s because he had to use his fingers to hold the pickguard down
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#43
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That makes more sense than my theory, I always figured he was born with 5 thumbs .
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