Question for luthiers - why do so many guitars buzz at the 1st string 12th fret?

[815C]

Yesterday I went to Gruhn's Guitars and Carter's Vintage Guitars. I've noticed many high end guitars have fret buzz at the 12th fret of the 1st string. I picked up around 15 high end guitars (Martins, Gallaghers, Taylors, etc.) and only ONE of them (a Gallagher) didn't buzz at the 1st sting 12th fret.

I wasn't picking overly hard.

Anyone know what the challenge is to getting a guitar to not buzz at the 1st string 12th fret?

[sinistral]

I have never encounter that. Are you saying that you would hear a buzz when playing the first string fretted at the twelfth fret? Sounds like a setup issue, but it’s odd to be happening to so many guitars at once. I assume that they have proper humidity control, otherwise I would’ve suspected something like that.

[Inyo]

Originally Posted by 815C

Yesterday I went to Gruhn's Guitars and Carter's Vintage Guitars. I've noticed many high end guitars have fret buzz at the 12th fret of the 1st string. I picked up around 15 high end guitars (Martins, Gallaghers, Taylors, etc.) and only ONE of them (a Gallagher) didn't buzz at the 1st sting 12th fret.

I wasn't picking overly hard.

Anyone know what the challenge is to getting a guitar to not buzz at the 1st string 12th fret?

Ask Gallagher. Obviously, they've solved the problem.

[L20A]

While I have not experienced the issue, I would make a guess that these guitars have been set up for the easiest possible playability.

It is a very easy fix to get a guitar's action set up for your playing style.

[TheGITM]

Originally Posted by L20A

While I have not experienced the issue, I would make a guess that these guitars have been set up for the easiest possible playability.

It is a very easy fix to get a guitar's action set up for your playing style.

^^^ This

There's always some trade-offs in the setup. If you want really low action you risk some buzz up the fretboard. If you want no chance of buzz then you have to give up a little bit of action, or have the nut/saddle compensated at the individual string level. Given that there are slight changes in guitar geometry from seasonality, and over time, you can spend a lot of time chasing the perfect setup. I know some guitarists that swap saddles depending on the season for that very reason. Typically, you find the best compromise for what you are wanting to accomplish...

A little fret buzz when shopping for a guitar doesn't usually concern me. I know it can be addressed/corrected.

[mawmow]

Hum… Were they dreadnought or orchestra models set up for fingerstyle ?

Did the necks already suffered a bump by neck joint ?

I am quite sure all my orchestra models set up for light fingerstyle
would buzz under heavy strumming…

[biffnix]

I'm no luthier, but seems pretty logical to me. Since the neck usually meets the body at the 12th fret, it is more solidly joined there, and therefore the fretboard doesn't flex, or have any real relief built into it from the neck/body joint to the highest fret (closest to the bridge).

I've never seen a neck/fretboard that has relief from the 12th fret (or wherever it joins the body - 13th, 14th fret on some acoustic designs) down to whatever the highest fret is (20th-ish). That's because any bow only happens from where it joins the body up to the nut, since that's the flexible part of the neck, and the part that the truss rod will force to bend.

When the neck joins the body, it really can't bend much (if at all, really) from the neck/body joint to the bridge-end of the fretboard. Since that stays flat, when you press the string at the 13th fret or higher, the neck angle must be exactly high enough to allow the strings to vibrate freely without touching any of the higher frets. If that neck/body angle isn't pre-adjusted on the guitar, the only way to fix that would be the raise the bridge, or lower the frets that are in the way of allowing the strings to vibrate freely. I suppose using lighter gauge strings might also help, since they're thinner, and might allow for more clearance from the frets. But, that would be offset by the fact that the neck relief would be less, and therefore flatten out, requiring a truss rod adjustment.

For the lower frets (from the nut to the neck/body joint), the proper neck relief will generally keep things from buzzing, but that also means the neck/body joint angle and bridge height has been properly set as well.

So the variables I see are nut height, neck relief, neck/body joint angle, bridge height, string gauge, and fret height. All of those have to be set properly for the load from the strings to get your preferred action dialed in.

Cheers.

[fregly]

The guitars don't have any or enough fall off north of the 12th most likely.

[phavriluk]

Well, the 12th fret is midpoint in the scale, and the midpoint of a vibrating string ( the greatest deflection in the string) is - - - at the 12th fret. Sounds to me if a string height is low and if it's whacked hard, it might well buzz, and the place where the buzz is likeliest is midpoint of the string.

[Pickcity]

This is happening to my old Yamaha FG-110-1 right now. It has always had this issue, but I don’t want to adjust it because it plays so good. It’s a trade off for me. Of course, this guitar is not high end, but it has the issue, same as those you mentioned.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by biffnix

I'm no luthier, but seems pretty logical to me. Since the neck usually meets the body at the 12th fret, it is more solidly joined there, and therefore the fretboard doesn't flex, or have any real relief built into it from the neck/body joint to the highest fret (closest to the bridge).

I've never seen a neck/fretboard that has relief from the 12th fret (or wherever it joins the body - 13th, 14th fret on some acoustic designs) down to whatever the highest fret is (20th-ish). That's because any bow only happens from where it joins the body up to the nut, since that's the flexible part of the neck, and the part that the truss rod will force to bend.

When the neck joins the body, it really can't bend much (if at all, really) from the neck/body joint to the bridge-end of the fretboard. Since that stays flat, when you press the string at the 13th fret or higher, the neck angle must be exactly high enough to allow the strings to vibrate freely without touching any of the higher frets. If that neck/body angle isn't pre-adjusted on the guitar, the only way to fix that would be the raise the bridge, or lower the frets that are in the way of allowing the strings to vibrate freely. I suppose using lighter gauge strings might also help, since they're thinner, and might allow for more clearance from the frets. But, that would be offset by the fact that the neck relief would be less, and therefore flatten out, requiring a truss rod adjustment.

For the lower frets (from the nut to the neck/body joint), the proper neck relief will generally keep things from buzzing, but that also means the neck/body joint angle and bridge height has been properly set as well.

So the variables I see are nut height, neck relief, neck/body joint angle, bridge height, string gauge, and fret height. All of those have to be set properly for the load from the strings to get your preferred action dialed in.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by fregly

The guitars don't have any or enough fall off north of the 12th most likely.

Originally Posted by phavriluk

Well, the 12th fret is midpoint in the scale, and the midpoint of a vibrating string ( the greatest deflection in the string) is - - - at the 12th fret. Sounds to me if a string height is low and if it's whacked hard, it might well buzz, and the place where the buzz is likeliest is midpoint of the string.

On 14 out of 15 "high end" guitars at the same time and place? Really?

[DDW]

Seems like the common thing in those 15 guitars is - you. Would someone else playing those guitars on the same day experience the same thing? Everyone has a different style, perhaps yours requires a bit more clearance on the 1st string.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

On 14 out of 15 "high end" guitars at the same time and place? Really?

I don’t buy it either. I keep my action relatively low (~2mm on the 1st string at the 12th fret) and don’t have any string buzz on over 30 guitars, many of which are arguably higher end (Martin Authentics, PWGC, etc.). Not to mention hundreds of high-end guitars I’ve played at shops like TR Crandall, Retrofret, Rudy’s, The Music Emporium, etc.

I realize that it was busy at Carter’s when the OP was there, but I would’ve asked someone at the shop what was going on with the setup of those guitars (assuming that there actually was anything wrong with the guitars).

[fregly]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

On 14 out of 15 "high end" guitars at the same time and place? Really?

Pretty common thing to have buzzing up there. Perhaps the op was overhitting to get the buzz after hearing the effect on a few. I don't doubt it was real on many though. Bring a fret rocker to any store high end or otherwise, and it is a rare guitar that doesn't need tech work. My experience is the high frets are commonly problematic. Also I have not found high end builders better at setups than the big factory names. All rather marginal at best. I have politely pointed it out to luthiers a couple times from guitars I have received and got defensive responses.

[Bill Kraus]

If these were guitars that had some years on them and were not new ones, as has been previously mentioned, it is probably that there is not enough fall away from the neck joint towards the sound hole. Many or most factories and builders don't build any fall away into the fret board extension. When they level the fret board, it is level from the nut through to the last fret. Over time, the body shape shifts a bit and the neck shifts slightly forward at the neck joint in relation to the top. When this happens, if you sight down the neck you will see what looks like a ski jump over the body, where the fret board extension ramps up, and the strings will buzz on the higher frets in some cases. This is the same movement that causes the need for a neck reset as it gets worse. Some builders, myself included, ramp the fret board extension down a few thousandths of an inch, so that when the neck shifts slightly forward down the road as the guitar ages, playing up high on the neck, you won't get the strings buzzing on those higher frets.