New mics - Line Audio CM4

[Wrighty]

Hi all

I ordered these mics a few weeks back after doing some research and seeing a lot of very positive reviews on various forums.

They arrived last week and I have now had a chance to try them out so though I would give you some thoughts and a sound file to hear them.

They are tiny - literally the size of an XLR plug and weighing only a few grams - very nicely put together and delivered in a neat little case with windshield and holder for each.

IMG_1551.jpgIMG_1552.jpgIMG_1553.jpg

I ordered the matched shock mounts too as they are so light they are more susceptible to bangs and jolts through the floor.

First impressions are very good - they offer a very balanced and full sound which is a big improvement on my previous AT2020’s. They are also quieter to my ears.

Here is two recordings - one is the base output with nothing but a high pass applied at around 50hz and a levels adjusted to about -14LUFS.

The second one has some more work in terms of EQ / a little compression and some reverb applied.

Mics were in a spaced pair at 20” apart and 10” from the guitar - pointed at around fret 12 and bridge.





I am going to have to be mindful of the extra sensitivity to noise that these have - I can hear my movement a lot more clearly at the start of the recording.

I’d love to hear your thoughts or observations or how I might get the best out of these new mics..

[AcousticDreams]

For years I have seen Threads on Gearslutz comparing the CM3 to Schoeps. Many claiming that the Schoeps were better but not by much. I had listened to some recordings using the CM3's and thought they were very good...but still lacking. I heard noise and a lack of openness.

Thus I recently bought a pair of Schoeps...and are very happy.

I had heard the CM4's were an improvement...But $$$*#+...These sound amazing! Totally balanced and full like you said. I hear Quiet, open, full, & balanced.

Hmmm? honestly, If I had heard this recording before I bought my Schoeps, Well??. Actually, I still might buy a pair of these for the price of $125 each? That is amazing. And upon looking on the webiste just now...the Cardiod pattern is slightly wide...which is what I like..a little bit of that Omni presense. And the frequency response is not only Flat but very true up to the 16K range. With only about a 2 .5 reduction at 60 degrees & 5 db reduction at 90 degrees= that is about the same as my Schoeps. Wow..that is very good. I am really impressed.

[jim1960]

That's some lovely playing. The Handing Down has been a favorite tune of mine ever since I first heard it in the late 80s on the Windham Hill Guitar Sampler and you did the tune great justice. Really beautifully performed and I think the slightly slower tempo enhances the song. I always felt Gerhard rushed it a bit.

As for the mics, I went to give listen to some of your other recordings on your YouTube channel. These mics are certainly taking you in a different direction. The zoom mics and the AT2020 were brighter and a bit harsh on the top. The new mics are warmer, and sound pretty decent if you listen past the noise issues ...but that noise IS an issue, and it's one that was exacerbated by the EQ curve you used in the adjusted take.

Also, I couldn't help but observe that the adjustments you made in the 2nd version brought the results you got with the new mic pretty close to the results you got with the 2020 pair. The first version was, to my ears, more pleasant to listen to and felt like it had a better balance between the highs, mids, and lows. It needed some work but I don't think it needed the kind of push you gave it. That second version was approaching the same kind of higher frequency harshness you were getting with the zoom and the 2020s. I think you're heading in the right direction with those mics but I'd suggest a lighter hand with the higher frequency EQ boosts you made.

Naturally, the sound we prefer is totally subjective, so my opinion is just that. If you prefer that higher frequency boost, that's certainly your call.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by jim1960

The first version was, to my ears, more pleasant to listen to and felt like it had a better balance between the highs, mids, and lows. It needed some work but I don't think it needed the kind of push you gave it. That second version was approaching the same kind of higher frequency harshness you were getting with the zoom and the 2020s. I think you're heading in the right direction with those mics but I'd suggest a lighter hand with the higher frequency EQ boosts you made.
.

I do very much agree with Jim1960, that I like the first Uncompressed, un-EQ. un-reverb version. (And I love compression and Reverb) But I think that natural sound of these mics is very good. I should have mentioned this in my first reply.

[TBman]

They sound very good Peter. I'm quite jealous of the quality!

Now of course I'll have to dig out my sdc mics and play around with them

I guess these aren't available out my way yet.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

For years I have seen Threads on Gearslutz comparing the CM3 to Schoeps. Many claiming that the Schoeps were better but not by much. I had listened to some recordings using the CM3's and thought they were very good...but still lacking. I heard noise and a lack of openness.

Thus I recently bought a pair of Schoeps...and are very happy.

I had heard the CM4's were an improvement...But $$$*#+...These sound amazing! Totally balanced and full like you said. I hear Quiet, open, full, & balanced.

Hmmm? honestly, If I had heard this recording before I bought my Schoeps, Well??. Actually, I still might buy a pair of these for the price of $125 each? That is amazing. And upon looking on the webiste just now...the Cardiod pattern is slightly wide...which is what I like..a little bit of that Omni presense. And the frequency response is not only Flat but very true up to the 16K range. With only about a 2 .5 reduction at 60 degrees & 5 db reduction at 90 degrees= that is about the same as my Schoeps. Wow..that is very good. I am really impressed.

Thanks for the response - you have a lot more knowledge about mics than I do but at least we seem to be hearing the same things in general terms.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by jim1960

That's some lovely playing. The Handing Down has been a favorite tune of mine ever since I first heard it in the late 80s on the Windham Hill Guitar Sampler and you did the tune great justice. Really beautifully performed and I think the slightly slower tempo enhances the song. I always felt Gerhard rushed it a bit.



As for the mics, I went to give listen to some of your other recordings on your YouTube channel. These mics are certainly taking you in a different direction. The zoom mics and the AT2020 were brighter and a bit harsh on the top. The new mics are warmer, and sound pretty decent if you listen past the noise issues ...but that noise IS an issue, and it's one that was exacerbated by the EQ curve you used in the adjusted take.



Also, I couldn't help but observe that the adjustments you made in the 2nd version brought the results you got with the new mic pretty close to the results you got with the 2020 pair. The first version was, to my ears, more pleasant to listen to and felt like it had a better balance between the highs, mids, and lows. It needed some work but I don't think it needed the kind of push you gave it. That second version was approaching the same kind of higher frequency harshness you were getting with the zoom and the 2020s. I think you're heading in the right direction with those mics but I'd suggest a lighter hand with the higher frequency EQ boosts you made.



Naturally, the sound we prefer is totally subjective, so my opinion is just that. If you prefer that higher frequency boost, that's certainly your call.

Thanks Jim for the kind words re the piece - I love this piece and Ed’s playing in general.

Re the EQ and treatment - guilty as charged :-(

The noise I need to be very aware of as it is not pleasant.

I have had more than one comment around my EQ / treatment making a piece worse than the untouched version so I cannot take issue with your observations in this regard..

I do try to focus on subtractive EQ in general terms, but have used the reference option in Ozone to load up Ed’s recording and try to match that - which always wants to boost my high end. I think I need to stay well away from using it from here on in and just trust my ears.

I am learning, but slowly, what sounds good in EQ terms. I will have another bash at it and post a version for your comment if you have time.

Thank you again for the really helpful input..

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Thanks for the response - you have a lot more knowledge about mics than I do but at least we seem to be hearing the same things in general terms.

Wish that were true...but honestly I just do a lot of studying of charts and a lot of listening to You tube videos. In reality..I learned my lesson a long time ago...charts do not that the whole story. What goes on between the lines has yet to be charted and told. What often looks good on paper, does not live up to expectations. But from my first impressions of your new mics...they do live up to and even exceed expectations. Sincerely, very nice.

I have very little time yet in the real world. So I can not comment on noise levels

.

I value others ears like Doug Young. Why? well he has real time practical use. He owns and tests mics on a regular basis.

With that being said...again, I did hear a nice fullness and openness. The openness I attribute partially to the wide cardiod. Which for myself gives me the sound of the entire body of the guitar. And I also went against the grain and Choose a Wide Cardiod for my Schoeps pair. Which has not been the standard choice for Schoeps and guitars. However, for my style of playing, I believe that Wide Cardiod is exactly what I needed.

Unfortunately, I have also come to the realization, that the player and the Guitar are probably the most important part of the recording equation. It has taken me years to understand what guitar is correct for my style. What I originally thought was a good sound for a Guitar, I no longer deem as so.

Your playing and Guitar tone is excellent. So you are well ahead of the curve!

All Righty then....Now back to trying to get my guitar to sound even better, not using mics but making a new saddle. Sunday morning guitar fun--or is it work?.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by TBman

I guess these aren't available out my way yet.

Line Audio isn't available through the usual suspects. They have to be ordered direct from the manufacturer (in Sweden) or their one distributor, No Hype Audio, in Belgium (fantastic customer service from them btw).

This is one reason such good mics can be sold so cheaply. There is no advertising cost and only one potential middleman for markup. The mics are designed and assembled by by one guy with parts manufactured to his specs, and you're not paying extra just because of the name on the box.

Another not-well-known but similarly designed/built/sold mic is 3U Audio. They make a couple that apparently get very, very close to vintage U87 sound, and other classic mics, at a 1/4 to 1/10 the price. Even if they aren't quite the original, the value is very impressive.

Plus, as we're discussing here, guitar, player and room are big factors too. I think a lot of us are better off learning to use what we already own better, rather than chasing tone with new gear all the time. That's especially true since even inexpensive gear is orders of magnitude better than it was back in the day.

I haven't had time to do much recording lately, but since there's a thread now maybe I'll try to do some CM4 demos soon.

[rick-slo]

Peter, if you make available a download of the base file on soundcloud I might play around with tweaking it as I have some ideas.

[ChuckS]

Really nice playing, and recording. I prefer the first file, without the E/Q, based on the treble in the second recording.

Those Line Audio CM4 mics are very nice, and a crazy low price. As pointed out, their self noise is higher than more expensive mics but I guess whether it's an issue is really dependent on the source volume and the level of ambient noise.

I got (3) of the CM3 models a few years ago. The CM3 is the predecessor to the CM4, and the CM3 has a slightly wider polar response. I gave one to church and it's working very well for micing a flute. My son is using one for violin. I occasionally use the other for guitar for open mics or voice for video-conferencing.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Peter, if you make available a download of the base file on soundcloud I might play around with tweaking it as I have some ideas.

Hi Derek - I have enabled download on the base file now so you should be able to access it.

Let me know if you have any issues.

Thx

Peter

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by TBman

They sound very good Peter. I'm quite jealous of the quality!

Now of course I'll have to dig out my sdc mics and play around with them

I guess these aren't available out my way yet.

Thanks Barry, these are nice mics - but you already have some of those I think.

[Doug Young]

Very nice sound, especially on the first recording. Seems like a great option for budget mics. Compared to something like Schoeps, they have a lot more self-noise (according to the specs), but pretty much in line with other budget mics, including the AT2020s, and I don't think that's an issue here.

BTW, the Ozone EQ match thing always seems to want to dramatically boost the high end for me as well. Same with the "auto mastering" option. It seems to me that it's somehow not tuned well for acoustic guitar. I try those now and then, and the first thing I always do is pull those highs back down. It should be a useful tool for at least diagnostics, to see what's different between tracks, but in practice it doesn't seem to work as well as I'd expect. I prefer using Har-Bal when I want to compare the EQ characteristics of 2 tracks. You can do EQ in Har-Bal as well, but I never do, I use it as a learning/diagnostic tool - and just a validation that my EQ balance is at least roughly in line with my references. It seems more accurate for whatever reason, and doesn't try to make me add 10db to the highs on every track!

[jim1960]

I spent about 20 minutes playing with your track. I didn't do too much to it and I didn't address the noise issue at all.

Using Acon Equalize, I rolled off at about 120 with a 24 degree slope and hollowed out at about 180, 380, and 4000 because I thought those cuts brought some clarity and separation to the notes.

Next I did some volume automation to get the track close to where I thought the dynamic range should be, then I used the UAD Gray LA2A to polish it up. I don't think the compressor hit anything higher than -3db. Mostly it was in the -1-2db range when it was kicking in.

I brought in the Softube Curve Bender next. I pulled down about 1 db at 300, boosted .5 at 500, boosted 1.5 at 3600, and gave a 1db shelf boost at 16000.

I added a bit of polish with the Kush Clariphonic. It doesn't have traditional settings so this will be meaningless to anyone who doesn't have it, but I set open-tight about 2 o'clock on the first adjustment, and silk 10 o'clock on the second.

I set the UAD Capitol Chambers reverb up on an aux track. I tried a bunch of presets and thought "Chris Dugan - Big Stereo Guitars Sauce" was closest to what I wanted. There may have been a better choice but I don't have the time to hunt them all out right now. I rolled off the verb below 600 and above 10k at a 15 degree slope (credit: Abbey Road).

About two minutes into this I realized something... I never work on solo acoustic guitar instrumental tracks. Everything I've ever worked on has had a vocal track and, to a large degree, that was the thing that drove most other decisions. This is a whole other animal. I'm not sure how close I got to where I'd want to end up. I think I'm pretty close but I'd have to rest my ears and come back to it again.

Any of you guys who have done more of this type of music, feel free to criticize my effort on this. I'm happy to hear what you'd do differently or what you hear that I should have done differently.

Edit: Doug's comment made me realize I should have explained myself better here. I ignored the noise because I know this wasn't being presented as a mix ready track. I made adjustments as if the noise were not an issue. So I'm really only focused on the guitar and I disregarded what my changes did to enhance the noise.