How much acoustic is enough in a song?

[b1j]

When I cover a song that I have heard recorded, I try to play the acoustic part kind of close to the way I heard it on the record. That’s true whether I’m just playing it for myself or trying to record it. Occasionally I still try to just play it in a new way without worrying about copying it, but I do like to start out being able to try to copy it. I hope that that will show me a little something about a good way to play.

But now I’m working on an original song, and I’m going back and forth trying to decide how to play the chords through the various verses and choruses. Do I finger pick? Do I strum? Do I pluck an entire chord? Where do the silences go? When I just play it for myself, there’s no problem. I just play what I feel like. But I’m trying to create a recorded version of it, and I would like that one to be able to hold its own over repeated listenings. The question is, what playing choices to make.

Eventually I expect I’ll arrange the song with bass, keys, drums, background vocals, and maybe another lead guitar. At that point, I expect i’ll pare down the acoustic part to simple chord strumming and let the other parts have their say.

[The Bard Rocks]

It sounds as if you are doing your own recording, so studio expenses are not a consideration. If so, then record it several different ways, then listen to each, play them for others for second opinions. Then decide what is best.

When I compose, I generally fool around with it for some time, taking my time to make musical decisions. For me, it takes longer to hone the words than the sound. This process always takes a few hours - and sometimes even many months before I am satisfied.

[KevWind]

Do I finger pick? Do I strum? Do I pluck an entire chord? Where do the silences go? When I just play it for myself, there’s no problem. I just play what I feel like.

Humm well it's an interesting question but is also the crux of what "being the producer" the "songwriter" and being the "recording artist" is all about...

In other words those are the decisions (often based on how it feels to you while you are playing ) and those feelings create the art within the craft .. AND really there is no formula for a right answer.

Other than what the Bard said about trying it several ways.

Perhaps one issue is on a cover song you heard numerous times likely you already kind of know how the original makes you feel,, and it is then just a matter of playing it and getting that feeling going in your cover version

With an new original, that "pre feeling" has not yet developed and could be why you are undecided .. So perhaps wait a while to record and just keep playing and practicing until you develop that feeling of how it should sound in your mind which could then give some direction for the way you want to play it and record it ????????????

[jaymarsch]

I am mostly a solo singer songwriter who occasionally plays with one other guitar player but, depending on the song, These are some things that I consider with my arrangements:
- I like the accompaniment to build as a song progresses. So I may start out sparse with just a rhythmic figure or a simple bass line
- I have lyrics and I want those to be heard so and embellishments are put in either at the end of a line or used to link the verse and chorus
- I will sometimes finger pick the verses and strum the chorus or maybe use chord melody for an instrumental break or bridge
- I explore moving the chord progression up the neck and play it there for a verse to play with variations on the melody or try out some inversions, chord substitutions, experiment with where a bass run might work
- I will analyze a song that I really like to see what choices have been made with instrumentation and particularly the guitar part
Nothing too innovative here, just how I approach it. So many ways to do it and I try and let the emotion of the song dictate these decisions so the song ebbs and flows - where do I want the tension to build and where does it release?
Enjoy the process and please let us know how it goes.
Best,
Jayne

[Stonehauler]

I've been playing...sorry, trying to play and learning all the stuff I am doing wrong...Paul Simon's music recently. What I am learning from him is that he does a lot of variations to help keep it from sounding repetitive.
Taking examples from my book's version of "The Sound of Silence"
First off, the version I am learning has me fingerpicking a broken chord for the first verse and the the last few bars.
The next verse, the book introduces a 1/4, 1/8, 1/8, 1/4, 1/8, 1/8, | 1/4, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8 rhythm. On the first measure, my book changes the chord as well on the upstroke beats. So for G, he goes from a three fingered G on the downstroke, and on the 1/8 note upstroke, it's just the A, D, G strings that are played. When the Am is played, he again has you playing the A, D, G as open on the 1/4, 1/8, 1/8, 1/4, 1/8, 1/8 measure. The 1/4 and 6-1/8 note measures are just the normal up/down strokes on the same chords.
My version also has an F to C to G/B (only playing the 4 middle strings) back to C progression or an F to C, to G/B to Am, to G/B and back to C progression. To me, this gives a really nice sound that the audience won't get tired of the same down, down, down/up down rhythm.

For Mrs. Robinson, it's a nice base note strum pattern 1/4, 1/4, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, but he places some nice bass note runs in there as well to break up the pattern.

Check out Kathy Mattea's 18 Wheels and a Dozen Roses song (written by Paul and Gene Nelson). Again, I hear variations, runs, etc. Granted, most of them are done by other instruments and gives her song a fuller sound, but some of the bass note runs, some of the fingerpicking done can probably be incorporated into a single guitar part. It won't have the full effect, but again, it can keep the sound interesting.

So I guess what I am saying is that there is no such thing as "too much" acoustic guitar, but you have to approach it in such as way that you can keep that one part interesting to the audience.
Note, I am still learning and my skills/knowledge is dwarfed by most of the other people on this forum, so take what I say with a large boulder of salt.

[Robin, Wales]

My goal is to play the guitar so well when I accompany songs that no-one notices it (except, perhaps, other guitar players). I think that the guitar arrangement Johnathan Byrd has created for this song in the video above is just a beautiful match (it is a favourite song of mine to sing and play). In fact, he is good artist to explore on YouTube if you are looking for acoustic guitar arrangements for songs (and his song writing is excellent too).

Not too much, not too little - and it should just be a part of the song as a whole.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by b1j

…Eventually I expect I’ll arrange the song with bass, keys, drums, background vocals, and maybe another lead guitar. At that point, I expect i’ll pare down the acoustic part to simple chord strumming and let the other parts have their say.

hi b1j…
It's an art and a balancing act sometimes.

I have songs where the acoustic guitar figures prominently, because either it's a cleverly written piece which weaves the vocal and guitar, or it's a solo guitar piece.

And if/when I decide to expand it for either a duo piece (with a gigging partner) or a full-blown band piece, that's a different style of arranging.

So there is no simple answer.

I don't ever want my guitar parts to walk on the vocals, yet I don't want to just lay back and strum where there's room for some tasty ornamentation.

I love listening to folks who do this well - like David Wilcox (from Minnesota) who is a singer/songwriter extraordinaire. David's live concerts are a hoot!

I highly recommend a listen to Bob Bennett's "Carpenter Gone Bad" - a great example of semi-complex guitar and singing. He's just fun to watch and listen to.

Bob's guitar parts are really interesting, and varied, somewhat complex (especially noticeable when learning them) and not invasive over his vocals.

[kurth]

If you want to keep the 'acoustic' flavor, then less is more. The 'floor' of home recordings gets crowded very easy. Jayne had some good suggestions. You can build the song with very little additions. Too much and you lose the acoustic guitar flavor. I think it was hans zimmer who said music is about asking a question, and giving the answer. Also every good song absolutely needs to be recorded different ways. The only constraint is time, which I hope everyone has enough. It is a bit frustrating when you've deep dived and then surface to see it needs to be done another way, but that's part of the freedom home recording has brought to the scene. For vocals, I recommend building a modeling comp of how you want to phrase, and then try singing that phrasing for the final. With phrasing, it's amazing how much choice there is. I personally don't like a comp'ed vocal, but it's useful for sketching the phrasing for the final version. Although Billy Eilish says she uses comping syllables to arrive at a finish product, with hundreds of vocal files creating the finished vocal of a particular song, with an acoustically based song, imho, it's too artificial. As well with too much orchestration. Acoustic music by it's true nature must be open enough to hear the air.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by b1j

When I cover a song that I have heard recorded, I try to play the acoustic part kind of close to the way I heard it on the record. That’s true whether I’m just playing it for myself or trying to record it. Occasionally I still try to just play it in a new way without worrying about copying it, but I do like to start out being able to try to copy it. I hope that that will show me a little something about a good way to play.

But now I’m working on an original song, and I’m going back and forth trying to decide how to play the chords through the various verses and choruses. Do I finger pick? Do I strum? Do I pluck an entire chord? Where do the silences go? When I just play it for myself, there’s no problem. I just play what I feel like. But I’m trying to create a recorded version of it, and I would like that one to be able to hold its own over repeated listenings. The question is, what playing choices to make.

Eventually I expect I’ll arrange the song with bass, keys, drums, background vocals, and maybe another lead guitar. At that point, I expect i’ll pare down the acoustic part to simple chord strumming and let the other parts have their say.

As the "band leader" you can imagine exactly what you want all your "band mates" to play and how they play the parts. Map out exactly what you want before starting the multi-track recording process. You want to imagine the entire band performance and end up with something that you can visually image in your mind and say, "Yeah, I'd go out and listen to these guys..."

Lay down a scratch track with guitar and vocals to serve as a road map for your recording. As far as your actual guitar playing style, play and sing like you're performing it solo. If you can capture the feel in a "scratch track" performance then you're half way there.

Record the individual parts and delete the scratch track. Add seasonings, adjusted to taste and you're done.

As a multi-tracking home recordist I sometimes would like to add drums or other instruments that I don't normally play, but my general rule is to stick with instruments that I play well. Stuff that we don't have a good handle on generally stick out like a sore thumb, so I avoid that.

[kurth]

If you want to keep the 'acoustic' flavor, then less is more. The 'floor' of home recordings gets crowded very easy. Jayne had some good suggestions. You can build the song with very little additions. Too much and you lose the acoustic guitar flavor. I think it was hans zimmer who said music is about asking a question, and giving the answer. Also every good song absolutely needs to be recorded different ways. The only constraint is time, which I hope everyone has enough. It is a bit frustrating when you've deep dived and then surface to see it needs to be done another way, but that's part of the freedom home recording has brought to the scene. For vocals, I recommend building a modeling comp of how you want to phrase, and then try singing that phrasing for the final. With phrasing, it's amazing how much choice there is. I personally don't like a comp'ed vocal, but it's useful for sketching the phrasing for the final version. Although Billy Eilish says she uses comping syllables to arrive at a finish product, with hundreds of vocal files creating the finished vocal of a particular song, with an acoustically based song, imho, it's too artificial. As well with too much orchestration. Acoustic music by it's true nature must be open enough to hear the air.

[nbs2005]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

My goal is to play the guitar so well when I accompany songs that no-one notices it (except, perhaps, other guitar players). I think that the guitar arrangement Johnathan Byrd has created for this song in the video above is just a beautiful match (it is a favourite song of mine to sing and play). In fact, he is good artist to explore on YouTube if you are looking for acoustic guitar arrangements for songs (and his song writing is excellent too).

Not too much, not too little - and it should just be a part of the song as a whole.

Robin, that's a great tune and performance.

To the OP, yeah you figure out what you like best by trying a bunch of stuff that you finally call the recording. But you will never get it absolutely right as you'll play it slightly different one day and your mood will say 'wow, that was better'. And that's whats so fantastic.

Some of my favourite playing/singing is on my back porch after work where I run through songs I've done a bunch of times. But I often play them really different, stripped down with a simple rhythm that let's me play with the phrasing and vocal melody. Sometimes those version are the best.

Enjoy the journey.

Cheers,

Jeff

[jpmist]

When I just play it for myself, there’s no problem. I just play what I feel like. But I’m trying to create a recorded version of it, and I would like that one to be able to hold its own over repeated listenings. The question is, what playing choices to make.

I've been going thru this issue for some months as my acoustic song recording has stalled out due to hating my sound engineering skills. Thanks to all for the good suggestions in this thread!

Where I've been pondering has led me is to look critically at the artists I like and the choices they make in their recordings. I'll use Mark Knopfler's "Heart of Oak" which is pretty representative to how I write my tunes. https://youtu.be/uCs2R704Q7g.

Looking at the waveforms in an audio editor it's hard not to notice the vocals are at least twice as loud as the guitar. In Knopfler's song, there a fairly consistent fingerstyle riff thruout the song that complements the vocal melody and unfortunately Knofpler's solution was to literally bury that wonderful guitar in favor of his, frankly, average voice.

Being a lifelong Knopfler fan, this is my type of playing and songwriting but I consider my playing to be far better than my singing so I tend to increase the guitar volume to nearly match the level of the vocals. Where I run into problems is that this risks making the song sound very busy with the guitar melody competing with the vocal melody.

In GarageBand it's a simple process to pick spots to raise and lower the levels but it's fairly time consuming. I've also played a lot with increasing reverb levels which tend to drop the track back in the mix. A strumming backing track has always been an option, but I've never gotten around to trying it, in favor of doubling in a clean Strat fingerstyle track where it's longer sustain hopefully smooths out the guitar some.

Your comment "to be able to hold its own over repeated listenings" is the heart of your post. Kinda implies to me that you feel your own taste in how you want to hear your work is a few notches lower than what you think a professional producer would come up with. I've landed on my solution to simply make the song for my own ear.

[Glennwillow]

A song needs both a lyrical hook and an instrumental hook. Most of us here are likely to be predominantly acoustic guitar players so there's no reason in the world that the instrumental hook couldn't be done on the guitar. For me, this instrumental hook sort of defines how the guitar part is going to be played. So once I have these two key components of that help to get me started on the song, the instrumentation just tends to fall into place.

Sometimes I am not finding what I consider a good instrumental hook and then I feel a little stymied. At that point I start looking for ideas from other people whose music I respect. What would Paul Simon or John Denver or Gordon Lightfoot or Jim Croce or ??? have done with this? Often that approach gives me ideas.

- Glenn

[Bob Womack]

You know, it really varies with the song, dependent upon what you are trying to accomplish. I am hobbled by having developed during a period (the '70s) when guitar was the second voice in an ensemble. There was interchange between the vocalista and the guitarist and the guitars were used for development of the tension structure of the song. When I studied composition in college I was taught the business of expansion and contraction of the tension in a song to drag the listener along and develop interest. That is very important in the use of instruments.

Let me point you to an interesting use of acoustic guitar in a song.



Notice the use of fingerstyle in the intro, first verse, chorus, and second verse, then the switch to strumming for the second and third chorus with swells in between, and finally the return to fingerstyle for the outro as we get the anti-climax. This is an excellent use of technique to support the song.

Now by contrast, here is a song of mine that features a strummed chug throughout the song played on 12 string acoustic and a quiet distorted electric for girth. The 12 string is used as a rhythm texture, emphasized on the back beat in synchronization with the hi-hat. The increase in tension in the choruses is accomplished by an antiphonal call-and-response with a Fender Stratocaster lead. The rhythm guitars swell there as well.

HERE

Like I said, I grew up in a period when the guitar was as important a voice as the human voice, and I guess it shows in my arrangements.

Bob

[b1j]

I’ve participated in many threads here in the forum, and followed many more. I have to say, this one is the most enjoyable one for me. Thank you to everyone for your rich comments. Please know that I carefully read and listened to every part of all of them. I’d offer my comments now, but I just set up the LDC mic in my wife’s closet, and I’m about to put down the first rough vocal track in the song. When that is mixed, I’ll have the rough backing track for the song. I will take the advice offered here and use that track to let inspiration come over me about how to adjust each section of this song. Then I’ll put those parts in.

Fair warning: it’s gonna be pretty grim, owing to my skill level. Maybe once I have it I’ll post it over in the play and write forum, and ask for feedback, to help me generate ideas for improvement and embellishment.