Opinions on Mics for around $300

[mondoslug]

Originally Posted by runamuck

I've had the experience that a great mic can sometimes sound worse in a bad room than a cheap mic, maybe because it is more sensitive and "hears" more.

Fair enough, we all have different experiences. Somehow I'm getting stuck defending this very unpopular position which I'm okay with, I mean I said it but basically my point was though when people/engineers, pro, hobbyists, whatever - say spend your money on room treatment first I'm on the other side...get the gear especially if you don't have any and learn what to do, record, mix, get experience, etc. but yeah if your room sounds like sh*t as in you hear the walls & ceiling, okay maybe do something about it or move to another part of your space. But this is really off from the original $100 vs $300 mic thing, apologies although I would say a 4033 would be a better choice than the 2020 regardless of room but then that would get into all the people who hate 4033s...of which there are many & i was one but I got over it.



Beer me!

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Not sure what "room statement" you are totally disagreeing with ???
Of course a great mic is going to sound different, good room or bad, and I never indicated otherwise. You did read all the qualifiers I stated, yes ?

Also I don't know what "less than stellar" actually means., But what size and type were those "on site recording" rooms.? And I could be way off , bit I am speculating they were not a 10" X 12" spare bedroom with sheetrock walls and ceiling, carpet, and a make shift table as a recording desk " loaded with nulls , buildups, and comb filter, issues ''

And note I qualified my "room statement" with the term "problematic" And I further qualified that it depends on how problematic the specific room actually is .. And simply pointed out that in a "problematic room", the more a better mic can reflect that problem, and that any benefit could start to become be offset buy the problems. And that in untreated home recording rooms that more often than not a better mic may not be the best answer at first ---

Now you may disagree with that. But I think it is safe to say if a room is problematic then throwing a $3K mic at it, may not be the best way to spend ones money.
Not to mention the fact is the we were specifically talking about a $100 to $300 mic upgrade.

I'm not referring to your room statement, I'm referring to the first thing people say is you need room treatment over a better mic. Which I disagree with. Most $100 mics, especially bargain condensers just sound overly bright to me and harsh in the high end, and they aren't going to sound good in any room! And I think a few hundred dollar upgrade might be better, especially if with careful used mic buying you can get into something like a $500 mic.

And what I mean by less than stellar room is any room that is overly problematic with reflections. I carry portable gobos when I hit rooms that are really bad. And for me that will mean I can use better mics.

[alohachris]

Aloha gman,

I agree 100% with Rockabilly & everyone else who told you to treat your space first before you buy or even discuss ANY new mic or gear.

Otherwise, you'll be throwing away your money & wasting your time, like I did before I committed to adequate Room Treatment.

Make some (4-9) portable - not permanent, 4"x2'x4', free-standing, broadband absorbers for yourself. Then give your AT 2020's another listen. It might shock you when hear them in a treated space, the huge improvement.

Also, you can store portable gobo's when not in use. They work great in every space!

Here's how to save money on making DIY gobo's:

https://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009...-on-the-cheap/

Check out all the info above RE: ROOM TREATMENT, the most important part of recording, IMO. You MUST treat your space first with that $300 budget.

One last thing: it's not the mic alone to consider. It's using the right mic in a planned, complementary signal chain of equal-valued parts. Mic's must be paired to the right mic preamps in particular. Treat First!

Good Luck, gman.

alohachris

PS: The best Under-$300 mic I've used is a vocal dynamic mic, the Heil PR 35. Otherwise, buy a used condenser mic (like the great AKG 535 vocal condenser, often $150 bucks used). Or, save up for SDC mic's closer to $1000. But absolutely - Spend $ on Room Treatment FIRST -alohachris-

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by mondoslug

Fair enough, we all have different experiences. Somehow I'm getting stuck defending this very unpopular position which I'm okay with, I mean I said it but basically my point was though when people/engineers, pro, hobbyists, whatever - say spend your money on room treatment first I'm on the other side...
Beer me!

Do you record, or have you ever recorded, in a treated room? Have you compared recordings using the same mic in both treated and untreated rooms?

[mondoslug]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Do you record, or have you ever recorded, in a treated room? Have you compared recordings using the same mic in both treated and untreated rooms?

I'm still having a good time..

Yes & of course. Compared? Yeah, one engineer used the same type mic at a couple of different studios although it was a pair of them so not exactly the same thing & also not the same pres. I compare stuff all the time.

Again, I'm not arguing treated space vs not a great room.
I'm saying not to be afraid to upgrade the gear over spending money on room treatment first. It just depends.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I'm not referring to your room statement, I'm referring to the first thing people say is you need room treatment over a better mic. Which I disagree with. Most $100 mics, especially bargain condensers just sound overly bright to me and harsh in the high end, and they aren't going to sound good in any room! And I think a few hundred dollar upgrade might be better, especially if with careful used mic buying you can get into something like a $500 mic.

And what I mean by less than stellar room is any room that is overly problematic with reflections. I carry portable gobos when I hit rooms that are really bad. And for me that will mean I can use better mics.

Ah OK I get it now and I would agree no blanket declaration for either is going to be accurate 100% of the time . Myself I encourage anyone trying to make good recordings to do both . (which is the path I took)

My first LDC was a Studio Projects C1 and frankly it pretty marginal and kinda shrill in the highs in my untreated basement space.t
So I go 8 GIK panels 4 bass traps and 4 broad band and it was a bit better but still a bit harsh in the highs. So very quickly after that I got a Shure KSM 44 and with that and the room treatment it started gettin' fun...

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by mondoslug

Personal experience?

Did you treat your space and find you had no improvement? If so, what treatment did you use and how did you arrange it?

[mondoslug]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Did you treat your space and find you had no improvement? If so, what treatment did you use and how did you arrange it?

Hey Jim,

I appreciate your question but I’m not looking to get into that here.
I only have a few posts on this topic and they haven’t had anything to do regarding my place improving with treatment or not. I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt that said…

and repeating myself, again...of course it all depends on what the gear is, the room, your chops, etc. there's always exceptions to everything... but in general - I disagreed with the premise that you should spend the money on treating your room first before upgrading the gear.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Ah OK I get it now and I would agree no blanket declaration for either is going to be accurate 100% of the time . Myself I encourage anyone trying to make good recordings to do both . (which is the path I took)

My first LDC was a Studio Projects C1 and frankly it pretty marginal and kinda shrill in the highs in my untreated basement space.t
So I go 8 GIK panels 4 bass traps and 4 broad band and it was a bit better but still a bit harsh in the highs. So very quickly after that I got a Shure KSM 44 and with that and the room treatment it started gettin' fun...

Same here Kev, we are on the same page. I know that C1 mic, as a close friend of mine has one, and we recorded some stuff in his house with it. I also found it shrill especially because I generally like dark mics that take EQ well.

I think for beginners making a few gobos would be the ticket. They don't cost much to make, and there's plenty of DIY videos out there in youtube land.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by mondoslug

Hey Jim,

I appreciate your question but I’m not looking to get into that here.

Fair enough. But my own experience, as well as the experience of everyone I know with a studio and everyone I've ever convinced to treat their space, would disagree with you. I've never had anyone tell me treating their space, even so little as adding a couple of portable traps, didn't improve their recordings.

As I've and others have said before in this forum, given the choice between a bad room and great gear or a great room and mediocre gear, I'd choose the latter every time.

[mondoslug]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Fair enough. But my own experience, as well as the experience of everyone I know with a studio and everyone I've ever convinced to treat their space, would disagree with you. I've never had anyone tell me treating their space, even so little as adding a couple of portable traps, didn't improve their recordings.

Hey Jim, thanks. The thing is I never said anything to the contrary regarding the above statement. I don't disagree with it. I'm not sure where that came from.

Originally Posted by jim1960

As I've and others have said before in this forum, given the choice between a bad room and great gear or a great room and mediocre gear, I'd choose the latter every time.

That's fine, I simply have never been a fan of the ultimatum, treat your room first before you upgrade gear.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by mondoslug

That's fine, I simply have never been a fan of the ultimatum, treat your room first before you upgrade gear.

It's just sound advice (and that pun could not have been more on purpose).

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by mondoslug

the ultimatum, treat your room first before you upgrade gear.

Interesting I guess it's a matter of perspective.
I was not aware that by definition , any "ultimatum" was even possible on a recording discussion forum

While something like a spouse saying "Buy one more guitar and we are getting divorced" sounds like an ultimatum

"treat your room before upgrading gear " just sounds like a reasonable suggestion YMMV

[mondoslug]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Interesting I guess it's a matter of perspective.
I was not aware that by definition , any "ultimatum" was even possible on a recording discussion forum

While something like a spouse saying "Buy one more guitar and we are getting divorced" sounds like an ultimatum

"treat your room before upgrading gear " just sounds like a reasonable suggestion YMMV

Heh, indeed! I suppose i was a little over dramatic.

Yes, it's "reasonable"

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by mondoslug

Heh, indeed! I suppose i was a little over dramatic.

Yes, it's "reasonable"

Sometimes a bit of drama spices up the day --s'all good