New Seymour Duncan Wavelength Duo

[martingitdave]

In 2015 and 2016, I was using a dual source system from D-TAR called the Wavelength Duo, with a "twist." The Wavelength pickup is a nifty dual source preamp design with gain, bass and treble (9 dB) adjustment for the pickup source, a volume/blend control for the condenser mic, and a volume pot for the whole system. However, instead of the bundled LR Baggs Element UST pickup, I had wired in a K&K pure mini. I got the idea from an older thread of Doug Young's.

The only issue I had with this setup was related to the printed circuit board (PCB) and its arrangement in a Martin dreadnought with forward shifted GE bracing. In my case, the control unit hat to be rotated 90 degrees.



And, while it worked, it wasn't ideal. It caused some issues with access to the truss rod and the controls themselves. Eventually, I sold the guitar that the unit was installed in. And, I've been trying some various new analog pickups with lesser amounts of success.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/acoust...e-system-steel

Seymour Duncan recently dropped the D-TAR brand name and is using the trade name Seymour Duncan for its acoustic products. I happened to peruse their website and noticed that they had another version of this pickup for nylon string guitars. What surprised me the most with this nylon string version was that the PCB had been shrunk to about 1/3 of its size. Evidently, this has been available for some time.



So, not only is the mass of the board less, it would appear (on the surface) to interfere less. On a hunch, I called Seymour Duncan to discuss. The technician noted that, like me, many other people have successfully used the Duo with K&K pure mini transducers. I would assume that success is dependent on a number of factors, so YMMV. He also confirmed a suspicion that the nylon string version was exactly the same mic system and and preamp electronics. The only difference is in the size and shape of the control unit.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/acoust...ngth-duo-nylon

So, after fiddling with different solutions, I've decided to go back to something that I am familiar with, and had success with. I ordered the nylon string version and will install it in my D-28 Marquis that has a K&K pure mini. What I like about this system is getting the directness of the K&K with the air of the microphone. And, now that the mic and controls are further miniaturized, I am hoping it works even better. I will follow up and keep people posted on my progress.

In case you are wondering, the results of my last experiment with PUTW #54 were mixed. I got excellent tone, but I had some difficulty with install that mirrors Doug Young's comments. Also, the elements were too long for the bridge plate of the guitar I hoped to install it in. Consequently, it would not stay adhered.

[MrErikJ]

That's really interesting, Dave! I've always wondered how the Wavelength preamp would work with other pickups, especially those that sound great but would benefit from lightly more headroom. I've wondered how the LB6 would sound with that preamp and mic and I'd love to hear clips of your K&K with the Wavelength.

Great thinking.

[martingitdave]

Erik, I’ll send some clips when I get it worked out. I suspect there might be a slim potential for a phase issue with the LB6. But, it might not. However, in your case, the preamp can be set to stereo output (tip/ring) and you could send each signal to the board and flip phase if necessary.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Erik, I’ll send some clips when I get it worked out. I suspect there might be a slim potential for a phase issue with the LB6. But, it might not. However, in your case, the preamp can be set to stereo output (tip/ring) and you could send each signal to the board and flip phase if necessary.

The LB6 has been long used in Dual Source UST/Mic systems like the Baggs Duet and Dual Source and a variety of homemade dual source set-ups but its mixed phase crystals don't play nice with SBTs typically. It has enough output it doesn't really need an endpin preamp but I feel like the Wavelength would have the appropriate headroom to really make it shine.

[martingitdave]

Erik, in that case, it should be an excellent option. In fact, I might consider the same combo for my guitar which remains pickup-less. I’d prefer not to glue anything into that one, so an LB6 and Wavelength duo might be a perfect fit. Great discussion!

[MrErikJ]

Dave, I love pickups and discussing the intricacies and options involved. I'm always looking for the best "simple but great" (but also reasonably priced) solution which is why I gravitate to the LB6 and K&K. Regarding dual source, I was once told that what you really want is a good string sensor for stability and clarity and something microphonic for resonance and air. The LB6 offers a cleaner string tone than most USTs so I think it's a natural to have a mic complement. Phil Keaggy & Eric Johnson have used it with a mic and gotten excellent results. I've been thinking about adding the K&K to my Guild as it's my "strumming" guitar and I think the LB6 excels at fingerpicking and light strumming but it's prob not the best for dedicated strumming. Both pickups would probably benefit from a mic for a little "air" and resonance but I'd be curious, especially, to see how the LB6 would sound w/a high-headroom preamp like the Wavelength. I always thought the Wavelength with the Element sounded clean but "rubber band-y."

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

That's really interesting, Dave! I've always wondered how the Wavelength preamp would work with other pickups, especially those that sound great but would benefit from lightly more headroom. I've wondered how the LB6 would sound with that preamp and mic and I'd love to hear clips of your K&K with the Wavelength.

Great thinking.

Bad idea, unless you can find a way to change the gain setting in the Wavelength preamp. The LB6 puts out a whopping big signal in comparison to the Element transducer. The LB6 would probably overdrive the system with the Wavelength gain set where it is. You certainly wouldn't have the headroom which the Wavelength system has.

I once tried using an LB6 with the Fishman Prefix system. I got a severely over-driven signal with even a moderate attack.

There is a way to do it (without changing the system's gain), but you have to know what size of capacitor to wire in parallel with the transducer. That fix is beyond me.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Bad idea, unless you can find a way to change the gain setting in the Wavelength preamp. The LB6 puts out a whopping big signal in comparison to the Element transducer. The LB6 would probably overdrive the system with the Wavelength gain set where it is. You certainly wouldn't have the headroom which the Wavelength system has.

I once tried using an LB6 with the Fishman Prefix system. I got a severely over-driven signal with even a moderate attack.

There is a way to do it (without changing the system's gain), but you have to know what size of capacitor to wire in parallel with the transducer. That fix is beyond me.

Oh, I don't doubt that the gain boost as set for the Element might be a little high but probably not as much as you'd think. People commonly replace the Element in the Baggs Dual Source with a LB6 and the gain setting (low) is the same for both pickups (per the Baggs manual). The Element has a little more output than one might think as it was intended to replace the Baggs Ribbon Transducer that was notoriously low output. However, I've used my LB6 with my Baggs MixPro and found that setting the gain at 9 o'clock or slightly more was sufficient boost for the LB6 so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Good luck figuring it out, Dave!

[martingitdave]

I had a little time with the Wavelength installed. It sounds very very good. It does seem to dampen the top a little. My experience has been that ANYTHING attached to the top: trumic, control boards, preamps, etc. will dampen the top and make it less responsive. This Nylon version is actually better in this regard than others I’ve used. But, this is my bluegrass cannon. So, I may move this pickup to another guitar that I use for rock and folk. I need as much oomph from this guitar as possible.

[rb1591]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

Oh, I don't doubt that the gain boost as set for the Element might be a little high but probably not as much as you'd think. People commonly replace the Element in the Baggs Dual Source with a LB6 and the gain setting (low) is the same for both pickups (per the Baggs manual). The Element has a little more output than one might think as it was intended to replace the Baggs Ribbon Transducer that was notoriously low output. However, I've used my LB6 with my Baggs MixPro and found that setting the gain at 9 o'clock or slightly more was sufficient boost for the LB6 so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Good luck figuring it out, Dave!

I developed a short in my wavelength multi ust so I thought I would experiment by wiring in my barbera Soloist, which seems to have about the same output as an LB6. Although I haven't gigged with it yet, the soloist doesn't seem to overdrive the wavelength pre. Then again, I finger picker 80% of the time. Like MrEricJ I'm an fan if LB6 and Soloist type pickups because of the string to string balance and responsiveness. Finally, the addition of the multi's mic makes a very nice combination, imho. All that said, anyone out there have a strategy to reduce gain from pickup to get a better match?

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by rb1591

I developed a short in my wavelength multi ust so I thought I would experiment by wiring in my barbera Soloist, which seems to have about the same output as an LB6. Although I haven't gigged with it yet, the soloist doesn't seem to overdrive the wavelength pre. Then again, I finger picker 80% of the time. Like MrEricJ I'm an fan if LB6 and Soloist type pickups because of the string to string balance and responsiveness. Finally, the addition of the multi's mic makes a very nice combination, imho. All that said, anyone out there have a strategy to reduce gain from pickup to get a better match?

Incidentally, the pickup is just a rebranded LR Baggs Element, if you’d like to go back to stock.

[martingitdave]

Took a few days off from playing and testing pickups. With fresh ears, I don’t hear a major degradation of tone with the control unit on the treble side of the sound hole. I’ll take a few days and keep checking. Sometimes we hear with our eyes. And a few days away can help clear things up.

[rb1591]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Sometimes we hear with our eyes. And a few days away can help clear things up.

+1.

Thanks for the info about going back to stock. I've read that several times and may end up doing that very thing.

Wish a reasonably priced 18v preamp/mic/ was available that included a gain adjustment. I like the simplicity of such a system. Ideally, that pre-amp would house battery and simply plug into a TRS endpin jack … and include some tone controls via trimpots … actually much like the K&K dual channel pre but about the size of the old PUTW power plug.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by rb1591

+1.



Thanks for the info about going back to stock. I've read that several times and may end up doing that very thing.



Wish a reasonably priced 18v preamp/mic/ was available that included a gain adjustment. I like the simplicity of such a system. Ideally, that pre-amp would house battery and simply plug into a TRS endpin jack … and include some tone controls via trimpots … actually much like the K&K dual channel pre but about the size of the old PUTW power plug.

Evidently the PUTW inventor is selling two channel preamps under a new name. I can’t recall his new company’s name.

[dogdog49]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Evidently the PUTW inventor is selling two channel preamps under a new name. I can’t recall his new company’s name.

It's David Enke and here's the link to his new site. Not much new there for acoustic guitars beyond what PUTW offers and I didn't see a two channel preamp. It seems he's really into instrument design and crystals these days.


https://opentosourcesensors.com/