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  #31  
Old 10-31-2013, 01:04 PM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Originally Posted by dneal View Post
You do know those are high-tension and will ruin a classical, don't you?

smileyomittedonpurposesoastonotruinthejoke
Yeah. Rip the bridge right off, so they say
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  #32  
Old 10-31-2013, 05:42 PM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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You guys are making me laugh!!!

You're absolutely correct...we've had that discussion about ball-end strings and you guys lost! Sour grapes???

Rick seems to agree with Waddy, but I'm still waiting for the documentation. If you can't provide that, you're on the losing side of another discussion, with unsupported opinions.

And, dneal...just because you say you noticed John Williams playing a guitar that was strung differently than I recommended, doesn't prove me incorrect. One or two out all the thousands of professional classical guitarists? You must be joking! I have seen guitars strung incorrectly (IMO) on manufacturer's websites...but show me some documentation, and I'll at least consider amending my statements. If you can prove me "dead wrong" I'm not too proud and more than willing to do whatever you feel is appropriate, but until that times comes, you're just blowin' more hot air! And I'm lovin' it!

Glen
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  #33  
Old 10-31-2013, 05:59 PM
sigma0015s sigma0015s is offline
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Ok Glen you win, after all who would dare argue with someone who actually bought a Bellucci.
LOL
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  #34  
Old 10-31-2013, 06:13 PM
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Ok Glen you win, after all who would dare argue with someone who actually bought a Bellucci.
LOL
Now that is FUNNY!!!!!

By the way, Waddy is an accomplished classical guitar builder and when Waddy speaks, I listen and learn.
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  #35  
Old 10-31-2013, 09:29 PM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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Hahahahahaha! Well Sigma0015s, you got me there!!! Although, I don't really know why people think that's humorous. Yes, I actually bought a Bellucci Concert classical guitar (used). And, it is (without any doubt) the best sounding classical guitar I've ever had the pleasure of playing, and I've played quite a few over the years. This guitar is far above my skill level. But, I figured if Sharon Isbin and Ana Vidovic gave Renato's handmade guitars high praise for exceptional tone, who am I to question their judgment?

It's also a strikingly beautiful work of art. Tight grain, solid cedar soundboard over Bolivian rosewood, scalloped fan bracing using a Hermann Hauser blueprint. Russian handmade wood marquetry rosette of roses...and (I might add), it has perfect intonation, too! And, I got it for little more than a song because the seller didn't like the feel of the wider fingerboard with a 52mm nut!

And Dogsnax, for what it's worth, Waddy put a ? at the end of his comment. He indicated that it's possible to screw up the intonation if the strings are stretched unevenly...and I totally agree with that. He did not say that properly stretched strings would screw up the intonation.

Glen
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Last edited by scottishrogue; 10-31-2013 at 10:00 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:53 PM
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dneal dneal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishrogue View Post
You guys are making me laugh!!!

You're absolutely correct...we've had that discussion about ball-end strings and you guys lost! Sour grapes???

Rick seems to agree with Waddy, but I'm still waiting for the documentation. If you can't provide that, you're on the losing side of another discussion, with unsupported opinions.

And, dneal...just because you say you noticed John Williams playing a guitar that was strung differently than I recommended, doesn't prove me incorrect. One or two out all the thousands of professional classical guitarists? You must be joking! I have seen guitars strung incorrectly (IMO) on manufacturer's websites...but show me some documentation, and I'll at least consider amending my statements. If you can prove me "dead wrong" I'm not too proud and more than willing to do whatever you feel is appropriate, but until that times comes, you're just blowin' more hot air! And I'm lovin' it!

Glen
Glad you have a sense of humor about the ball-end comments, because we are yanking your chain.

But I'm afraid you have it backwards with the burden of proof. You're the one asserting there's only one correct way to wind the strings. You incur the burden of proof. Saying "I'm right until you prove me wrong" is what's hot air.
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  #37  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by scottishrogue View Post
Fred, something I forgot to mention in my previous post...when the D & G strings are wound toward the inside, they often make contact with and rub against the wood on the slot in the peghead. This causes problems with the tuning and can cause unnecessary wear to the string that can damage the peghead or weaken the string, especially when there are too many winds on the post. That is because on most tuning posts, the hole is located right in the center of the post.

I might sound like a "classical snob" even though I am not. I use the "Taylor method" and they specifically state winding from the inside out. I do use a "trick" to anchor the treble strings, to prevent slippage, which I discovered long ago, which I have never seen demonstrated in any video, and if anyone is interested I'd be more than happy to share. I do admit to using that kind of information (improper string installations) to my advantage when I am sizing up a seller (when I negotiate the price of a used guitar), as it will occasionally get me a much better deal. Just sayin'...

Glen
I'm interested in your "trick" to anchor the treble strings. Thanks - Rick
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  #38  
Old 11-01-2013, 03:59 AM
Dogsnax Dogsnax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishrogue View Post
Hahahahahaha! Well Sigma0015s, you got me there!!! Although, I don't really know why people think that's humorous. Yes, I actually bought a Bellucci Concert classical guitar (used). And, it is (without any doubt) the best sounding classical guitar I've ever had the pleasure of playing, and I've played quite a few over the years. This guitar is far above my skill level. But, I figured if Sharon Isbin and Ana Vidovic gave Renato's handmade guitars high praise for exceptional tone, who am I to question their judgment?

It's also a strikingly beautiful work of art. Tight grain, solid cedar soundboard over Bolivian rosewood, scalloped fan bracing using a Hermann Hauser blueprint. Russian handmade wood marquetry rosette of roses...and (I might add), it has perfect intonation, too! And, I got it for little more than a song because the seller didn't like the feel of the wider fingerboard with a 52mm nut!

And Dogsnax, for what it's worth, Waddy put a ? at the end of his comment. He indicated that it's possible to screw up the intonation if the strings are stretched unevenly...and I totally agree with that. He did not say that properly stretched strings would screw up the intonation.

Glen
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  #39  
Old 11-01-2013, 07:09 AM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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Originally Posted by rickyc View Post
I'm interested in your "trick" to anchor the treble strings. Thanks - Rick
After removing the strings and tying them off at the bridge, at the roller, face all the holes forward, then take the 1st string (high E) and put it OVER the first roller and through the hole in the back. Pull the string tight, then back off 3 inches. Then guide the short end string over the string connected to the bridge and then thread the string back through the hole in the post, and pull tight so the loop is just inside the hole in the post. Begin winding the string and after a half rotation align the string so the winding is moving toward the outside. Keep the successive windings tight together. This method will lock the string after only a single wind, but I recommend at least 2 winds, but no more than 3. Tune to concert pitch, and trim excess.

Glen
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Bellucci Concert
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  #40  
Old 11-01-2013, 07:13 AM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Originally Posted by scottishrogue View Post
You guys are making me laugh!!!

You're absolutely correct...we've had that discussion about ball-end strings and you guys lost! Sour grapes???

. . . .

Glen
A good laugh, indeed.

And IIRC it was something like 5 to 1 (you were the 1) against your ball-end theory.. . .

. . . . but that's not proof, I suppose. . . .

. . . . but then, we've seen no proof from you, have we? Hot air?
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  #41  
Old 11-01-2013, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishrogue
And, dneal...just because you say you noticed John Williams playing a guitar that was strung differently than I recommended, doesn't prove me incorrect. One or two out all the thousands of professional classical guitarists? You must be joking! I have seen guitars strung incorrectly (IMO) on manufacturer's websites...but show me some documentation, and I'll at least consider amending my statements. If you can prove me "dead wrong" I'm not too proud and more than willing to do whatever you feel is appropriate, but until that times comes, you're just blowin' more hot air! And I'm lovin' it!
Ok, so Williams is stringing his guitar wrong, or some student did it for him and the maestro didn't notice he was going to end up playing a few cents flat.

Let's look at Sharon Isbin. Man, she's got it wrong too. Maybe it's just that one picture. Dangit, she's done it again!!!

How about Paco de Lucia? Oh, he doesn't count since he plays flamenco. They do everything wrong.

Let's stick to the classical players. JULIAN BREAM HAS HIS WRONG TOO?!?!?. This is getting ridiculous.

Ok, we're going to have to go old school and check on the true Maestro, Andres Segovia. GAAAAHHHHH!!!! Doesn't anyone know how to string their guitars the right way?
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  #42  
Old 11-01-2013, 10:54 AM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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Dneal, you did it! You're going to enjoy this! I concede that your way of installing strings seems to be used more often than mine, so I apologize. You heard me right...I apologize!!!

My comments were inaccurate, but I still think my way is the best way, but that is only MY opinion. I looked through many videos and could only find 2 that recommended that all strings be wound from the inside out. I found a lot more that suggested the A, D, G & B should be wound inward.

And, in all the videos I watched, not one person recommended using ball-end nylon strings...so I guess I'm still safe there. Hahahahaha!

This was fun, and I hope we can do it again soon!!! I enjoyed your post...very tasteful and convincing, as well. Thanks, I feel very enlightened now.

Glen
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Gibson LP Deluxe/ES-347 TD/Chet Atkins CE
Fender MIA Deluxe Strat
Art & Lutherie 12-string
Bellucci Concert
Sigma CR-7
Recording King ROS-06 FE3/RPH-05
D'Angelico "New Yorker"
New Masters "Esperance SP"
Hermosa AH-20
I never met a guitar I didn't like.
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  #43  
Old 11-01-2013, 11:30 AM
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Thanks. I don't think it matters a whole lot which way you run the strings. I try to keep the angle to a minimum, to prevent binding with the wound strings. Some guitars dictate the way you're going to end up winding though. Like you noted earlier, sometimes the headstock will interfere. My Froggy P12 has the holes drilled to the outside, so every string pretty much must wind to the inside.

For the record, I'm no fan of ball end nylon strings. I don't think they're any higher tension than high tension tie strings though.
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  #44  
Old 11-01-2013, 01:20 PM
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In my opinion, the reason for winding inside out on the string rollers is that you always should wind to put the most tension on the strength side of the roller. The strength side is definitely the side where the hardware is, oh yeah, the outside of the roller. Truth is with most of the higher end machines having bushings on the inside, it probably makes less difference, but if you are playing a guitar with less expensive machines, i.e., the ones that come on a production guitar, you'll stand less chance of a roller binding and damaging a less expensive set of machines if you wind to the outside. Might not happen right away, but over time, there is a lot of pressure on that roller, which is acting like a lever - the farther out the string pull the higher the leverage on the machine. It's stopped by the hole, but that, then, causes the roller to bind in the inside hole, eventually.
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  #45  
Old 11-01-2013, 05:48 PM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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Waddy, you made my day!

The reason I wind from inside out is because I think it looks nicer. Who knew???

Glen
__________________
Yamaha FG-375S Jumbo
Martin DXME/D-35E/DC Aura/000-14 Custom/D-16E Custom/
000C Nylon/0000-28HE/Concept IV Jumbo/00-16C/D-4132SE
Gibson LP Deluxe/ES-347 TD/Chet Atkins CE
Fender MIA Deluxe Strat
Art & Lutherie 12-string
Bellucci Concert
Sigma CR-7
Recording King ROS-06 FE3/RPH-05
D'Angelico "New Yorker"
New Masters "Esperance SP"
Hermosa AH-20
I never met a guitar I didn't like.
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