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  #31  
Old 05-12-2012, 10:18 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Yeah, I agree that it takes longer than a fifteen minute attention span to learn Flamenco (well, ok, any music actually) ...

(I remember that when we got back from Montreal, I was managing a drug-infested apartment building (hey, I had to work), and one of the tenants would ride in on his low-rider at 3 in the morning with his radio blaring. When I went out to confront him, he only smiled and said "Hey, man, I'm just practicing.")
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  #32  
Old 05-12-2012, 10:52 AM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
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Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
Yeah, I agree that it takes longer than a fifteen minute attention span to learn Flamenco (well, ok, any music actually) ...
Ok, but I was trying to say that after just *listening* to 15 minutes of any specific kind of music, it all starts to sound the same.

Still, I'm most happy when genres maintain their distinctions. When reaching into medicine cabinet, there should be a label on every bottle. "Fuse" everything together, and my 15 minutes of enjoyment becomes about 15 seconds.
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  #33  
Old 05-12-2012, 12:21 PM
RastaRobbie RastaRobbie is offline
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Wow , a lot of hate going on here for the fusion word.
This makes me very sad and after a grand total of three posts I will now leave this forum and there will be much rejoicing...bye...
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  #34  
Old 05-12-2012, 01:33 PM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
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Originally Posted by RastaRobbie View Post
Wow , a lot of hate going on here for the fusion word.
This makes me very sad and after a grand total of three posts I will now leave this forum and there will be much rejoicing...bye...
The expression of one's preferences ought to be distinguished from *hate.* Or perhaps I missed the hate posts in this thread.

Probably no consolation now, but obviously many or most genres of "distinctive" music were one day purer, then fused with something else. Example, country music music got fused with certain preferences (in 1940s) so now there's bluegrass.

Please don't allow mere opinions in such a thread to chase you away, but since you say it made you <<very sad>> maybe there are happier places.
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  #35  
Old 05-12-2012, 01:38 PM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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I think that a musical tradition (like Flamenco) implies a discipline in which the art has been honed by many individual artists over time to create an integrated musical orientation.

Paco de Lucia grew up in Flamenco, and understands its traditions thoroughly, which is why he was able to expand it in an intelligible (and accepted) way before he ventured off into other fields. (Some feel that PdL went from being a first class Flamenco guitarist to a third class jazz musician - while acknowledging his brilliant technique in the crossover. I am not qualified to judge anything about jazz guitar except technical skill - maybe - if interpreted in comparison to Flamenco technique)

The unfamiliarity (or confusion) with many fusion artists with the Flamenco tradition is painfully obvious to me - since the their music is often only expressed in terms of the mechanics - technique, scales, and chords, but most often the lack of compas is glaringly apparent (unless the piece is duple meter, and even then.....). Again, compas is so essential to Flamenco - even "going out of compas" occasionally (a la Diego del Gastor) means you know what it is enough to confirm its artistic value in a Flamenco context.

Those who have worked through the tradition will know what I mean; those that haven't -- I'm not so sure.....:-)

It is worth noting that those of us who went over to Spain in the '60s when Spain was still closed (and Flamenco was still largely secret, and there were very few recordings and no videos) have a different perspective from those who have a bewildering number of artistic perspectives available on YouTube.... Good News and Bad News.....:-)

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 05-13-2012 at 08:27 AM.
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  #36  
Old 05-12-2012, 10:36 PM
Davis Webb Davis Webb is offline
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I agree that its a demanding and rewarding style. It is self contained, if you master it you have mastered the guitar no doubt.

That having been said, there is only so much Spanish music I can take. Like a steel drum band or a country pyrotechnic flatpicking session, its too restricted a musical idiom for me to explore further. My friend who was raised in Arizona near the Mexican border is a fanatic. He loves it, has groomed his nails his whole life and is endlessly fascinated with it. So I think if it gets ya, it gets ya good.

What I like is when a flamenco player performs on an Ibanez or a Strat with a fretless bass player, a reggae singer and some native tribal drums. You mix those world traditions together, I chose random examples, now yer talking. I think flamenco like classical is a historical artifact and is the basis for what we do now. But to stop there, seems like such a loss and doesnt hold my attention. I want to hear something new, that speaks to me about our times, not the Moors of yesteryear. Same thing with Celtic, electrify it, mix it up with some jazz and East Indian progressions and now yer talkin.

And THAT having been said, huge respect for you. Its a very very difficult style to play at all, much less dedicate yourself too. It commands so much discipline.
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  #37  
Old 05-13-2012, 08:32 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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The difficulty is in figuring out the difference between Flamenco fusion and Flamenco con-fusion..... (granting that there may be no distinction after all).... And also confusing novelty with genius.....:-)

However, stating personal preferences is ALWAYS valid and to be respected.... the problems arise when it is implied that everyone else should feel the same way (i.e., when one becomes a critic to convince others).... and sometimes the goal of being a critic is not to criticize but to educate....
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  #38  
Old 05-14-2012, 06:27 AM
Pedro Navaja Pedro Navaja is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
The difficulty is in figuring out the difference between Flamenco fusion and Flamenco con-fusion...
Best quote in this thread so far!

(especially the Spanish play on words, con)
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  #39  
Old 05-14-2012, 08:00 AM
Gostwriter Gostwriter is offline
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I didn't mean for my original thread to turn into a free for all but that seems to be the way things go these days just like with politics.

I do however appreciate your hard work on your website Chuck and some of the great lines you posted. I'm actually glad to see that someone will defend the style for what it is and also that someone will defend it for what they think it is. I understand that it is an ancient style steeped in traditions that only few fully grasp (and I love listening or imitating those players) and that many around the globe do not fully understand (even those who try and interpret it or combine it with their way of playing.) They know there is something great about it; they know it is different but they probably do not fully understand it as most of the great Flamenco artists previously mentioned probably grew up in Spain or perhaps in surrounding parts of Europe where Flamenco was an integral part of their childhood and musical study. Just as there are many great blues players like Eric Clapton who did not grow up in the same world or environment as the original blues players such as Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters.

So I also can also appreciate to a degree those who try to incorporate it into their playing style be it rock, country, jazz or any other style. I do think music is out there to be interpreted by others for example (just one small example) if the only version of Mister Sandman the original by the Cordettes, I would not pay it much attention but the first time I heard Les Paul or Chet Atkins play their instrumental versions; I wanted to sit down and master it once and for all. So I guess what I am saying is I can appreciate both sides, if I couldn't I would probably never attempt to learn Flamenco.

Thanks for all the feedback it was interesting and I will be checking out your web site again for sure.
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  #40  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:10 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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It is interesting that at one point in his career Eric Clapton actually made a pilgrimage to the Deep South to learn (or at least experience) the authentic art from the masters (as I remember, Lightnin' Hopkins, among others).

Just as a number of us, guided by Donn Pohren and his monumental works "Art of Flamenco", "Lives and Legends of Flamenco") , made the trek to Moron de la Frontera to learn from Diego del Gastor and his family......

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Just as there are many great blues players like Eric Clapton who did not grow up in the same world or environment as the original blues players such as Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters.
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  #41  
Old 05-14-2012, 05:42 PM
dyingsea dyingsea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
(Some feel that PdL went from being a first class Flamenco guitarist to a third class jazz musician - while acknowledging his brilliant technique in the crossover. I am not qualified to judge anything about jazz guitar except technical skill - maybe - if interpreted in comparison to Flamenco technique)
I personally thought PDL's work with The Guitar Trio was brilliant stuff though I've heard this sentiment from flamenco circles as well. I wouldn't consider him a straight jazz guitarist in the pure definition thereof since he wasn't soloing over II-V-I standards all the time, or using dominant subs every other chord (yes jazz guys I realize there is more to it but I'm generalizing). However, he definitely bridged fusion and flamenco seamlessly to make... well... fusion.

Last edited by dyingsea; 05-14-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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  #42  
Old 05-15-2012, 07:50 AM
Gostwriter Gostwriter is offline
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I would have to think that making a pilgrimage and growing up immersed in the blues or flamenco are two different things.
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  #43  
Old 05-15-2012, 08:06 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Those who make the pilgrimages will be the first to agree (although an exception might be made for David Serva, who has been immersed (almost) his whole life....:-)

(Come to think of it, the exception might be made for most of the flamencos in San Francisco...:-)

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Originally Posted by Gostwriter View Post
I would have to think that making a pilgrimage and growing up immersed in the blues or flamenco are two different things.

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 05-15-2012 at 08:17 AM.
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  #44  
Old 05-15-2012, 08:16 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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One of the reasons Flamenco has its unique sound is that it is very guitar oriented: there are three notes on five of the six strings at each position, which naturally emphasizes triple meter in compas and falsetas (the most important palos i.e. 6/8, 3/4 meters) as opposed to duple meter (2/4,4/4). Flamenco also uses diatonic scales (like classical). but with the emphasis on the Phrygian mode I mention in "Music Theory for Flamenco"... (So Flamenco is "triatonic" in a sense - it uses major, minor, and Phrygian application of the Circle of Fifths)...

In the same sense that the black keys of the piano emphasize pentatonic, which also affects electric guitar with a pick (two notes per pattern, up-down pick strokes), making electric more natural for that art.

(There is much more to say about this, of course, but way too technical to discuss here, IMO, but I do discuss some of it on my site)....

OTH, this may make sense only to me........:-)

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 05-15-2012 at 10:00 AM.
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  #45  
Old 05-15-2012, 09:16 AM
Gostwriter Gostwriter is offline
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Glad to see there is someone here who is well versed and well educated in the flamenco style - as probably so many of us are not - (at least I can speak for myself) - I don't really know how many on the forum know flamenco as well as you do, so your thoughts offer a very unique perspective to those of it who did not grow up around it.
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