After Flamenco is there Anything Else?

[BuleriaChk]

I use Ableton Live and "roll my own"; there are a few basic loops on my website (I don't even like cajon, which shows you how old I am.....:-)

(Although a couple have Middle Eastern accompaniment as I remember... I have TONS of Middle Eastern loops modified for Flamenco, but they confuse things for beginners....)

[Pedro Navaja]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

I use Ableton Live and "roll my own"; there are a few basic loops on my website (I don't even like cajon, which shows you how old I am.....:-)

(Although a couple have Middle Eastern accompaniment as I remember... I have TONS of Middle Eastern loops modified for Flamenco, but they confuse things for beginners....)

Yep. Old guy here too. Took a while for cajon to grow on me. I see you are in SB. I had an apartment there in Carp until last year. Do you know George Quirin? I'll check out your sites when I get home. They are blocked here at work.

Saludos.

[HHP]

Kansas Flamenco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXV94FCGN6w

[Red_Label]

LOL... I do so get a chuckle out of these internet boards sometimes.

The world is a BIG place and there are many capable artists who don't follow "the rules", but who make great music of their choosing. The world is PLENTY big for true flamencos to make their music in their traditional ways, and for "nuevo" or new flamencos to make their own brand of Spanish-flavored music in their own ways. You won't find ANY big name new flamenco/flamenco-jazz artist claiming to be a "true flamenco" ala Sabicas, Montoya, Serrano, Paco... or other lesser-known flamencos. It's quite ironic that Paco has pushed the boundaries of flamenco for years, playing with jazz/fusion/etc artists who choose to use a lowly plectrum. Evidently, such musical fraternizations were not beneath HIM.

And evidently, players like Strunz & Farah, Rodrigo Y Gabriela, Pavlo Simtikidis, etc... who've traveled the world and been seen and heard by millions over the years were not truly worthy. Certainly not as worthy as the lofty "real" flamencos in this little corner of the internet! I'll bet even guys like Lawson Rollins, who play amazing flamenco-inspired creations with their fingers... but who do not choose to adhere to a firm, traditional flamenco structure are somehow not fully worthy to the [unknown] flamenco snobs out there.

If there's one thing that I've learned over my 26 years of performing various musical styles professionally... is that musical snobbery is not only distasteful, but usually exhibited by those least qualified to purvey it. Now... have a great day and take care of those nails for pete's sake!

[BuleriaChk]

Anyone can play anything they want, as far as I'm concerned. But words have meaning, and as long as the pick guys call it "Fusion" that's fine with me; just not "Flamenco Fusion". Flamenco has well defined rules steeped in tradition, and in particular oriented towards the acompaniment of power of the Cante Gitano, which is intimately related to the rasgueo, thumb/index, techniques.

I just think that straying far from this tradition and then using the word "Flamenco" to describe it is an insult to the pure artists, the tradition, the history. Kind of like playing accordion (no matter how well) a la Lawrence Welk and calling it "Blues Fusion" or "Polka Blues"...

Bottom Line: do what you will; I just consider it to be in extremely bad taste in any number of ways, no matter what the excuse.... On the other hand, there are two fundamental rules applicable to Art, Sex, Political Philosophy, and possibly Religious Ecstasy:

1."You should never try to teach a pig to sing; it only frustrates you and irritates the pig.
(Oscar Wilde)

2. "If people don't want to come, nothing can stop them" - P.T. Barnum

The essence of (Gitano) Flamenco is in its compas - play anything else for a Gypsy from Jerez, and he'll just walk out of the bar...

Finally, there is good news and bad news:

The good news is that the tools of production are finally in the hands of the workers.
The bad news is that the tools of production are finally in the hands of the workers....:-)

Originally Posted by Red_Label

LOL... I do so get a chuckle out of these internet boards sometimes.

The world is a BIG place and there are many capable artists who don't follow "the rules", but who make great music of their choosing. The world is PLENTY big for true flamencos to make their music in their traditional ways, and for "nuevo" or new flamencos to make their own brand of Spanish-flavored music in their own ways. You won't find ANY big name new flamenco/flamenco-jazz artist claiming to be a "true flamenco" ala Sabicas, Montoya, Serrano, Paco... or other lesser-known flamencos. It's quite ironic that Paco has pushed the boundaries of flamenco for years, playing with jazz/fusion/etc artists who choose to use a lowly plectrum. Evidently, such musical fraternizations were not beneath HIM.

And evidently, players like Strunz & Farah, Rodrigo Y Gabriela, Pavlo Simtikidis, etc... who've traveled the world and been seen and heard by millions over the years were not truly worthy. Certainly not as worthy as the lofty "real" flamencos in this little corner of the internet! I'll bet even guys like Lawson Rollins, who play amazing flamenco-inspired creations with their fingers... but who do not choose to adhere to a firm, traditional flamenco structure are somehow not fully worthy to the [unknown] flamenco snobs out there.

If there's one thing that I've learned over my 26 years of performing various musical styles professionally... is that musical snobbery is not only distasteful, but usually exhibited by those least qualified to purvey it. Now... have a great day and take care of those nails for pete's sake!

[Pedro Navaja]

Lol! Chuck you crack me up

Red Label. You think this corner is snobby, go on over to ForoFlamenco or to Jason McGuire's forum. They make me and Chuck look super polite.

...musical snobbery is not only distasteful, but usually exhibited by those least qualified to purvey it.

That's the wrongest thing I have ever heard. The ultimate snob for his genre of music was Segovia!

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by Pedro Navaja

Lol! Chuck you crack me up

Red Label. You think this corner is snobby, go on over to ForoFlamenco or to Jason McGuire's forum. They make me and Chuck look super polite.



That's the wrongest thing I have ever heard. The ultimate snob for his genre of music was Segovia!

Pedro... I've been to those forums. Even registered on one. But even they seem to almost worship Paco with reverence. He, who would cavort with "swine" who dare to dabble in flamenco styles in non-traditional ways.

And yes, Segovia was quite the "snob". I've always prefered Bream, Williams, and Barrueco, but Segova EARNED his right to look down his nose, however distasteful it may have been.

[BuleriaChk]

(And the picture of Paco del Gastor hugging PdL in the photo in Bar Pepe in my video was before "Zyriab" ...)

Originally Posted by Pedro Navaja

That's the wrongest thing I have ever heard. The ultimate snob for his genre of music was Segovia!

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

Anyone can play anything they want, as far as I'm concerned. But words have meaning, and as long as the pick guys call it "Fusion" that's fine with me; just not "Flamenco Fusion". Flamenco has well defined rules steeped in tradition, and in particular oriented towards the acompaniment of power of the Cante Gitano, which is intimately related to the rasgueo, thumb/index, techniques.

I just think that straying far from this tradition and then using the word "Flamenco" to describe it is an insult to the pure artists, the tradition, the history. Kind of like playing accordion (no matter how well) a la Lawrence Welk and calling it "Blues Fusion" or "Polka Blues"...

Bottom Line: do what you will; I just consider it to be in extremely bad taste in any number of ways, no matter what the excuse.... On the other hand, there are two fundamental rules applicable to Art, Sex, Political Philosophy, and possibly Religious Ecstasy:

1."You should never try to teach a pig to sing; it only frustrates you and irritates the pig.
(Oscar Wilde)

2. "If people don't want to come, nothing can stop them" - P.T. Barnum

The essence of (Gitano) Flamenco is in its compas - play anything else for a Gypsy from Jerez, and he'll just walk out of the bar...

Finally, there is good news and bad news:

The good news is that the tools of production are finally in the hands of the workers.
The bad news is that the tools of production are finally in the hands of the workers....:-)

Chuck, I've visited your site on several occasions. I salute you for providing learning tools free of charge. And I respect your passion and desire to ensure that traditional, "REAL" flamenco be carried on to future generations.

You're right... it probably does water-down the meaning of the term "flamenco" for many who dabble it or only hint at it, to use that term. But we live in a world where one must choose from a finite set of words to try to describe to others what they do. After the listener evaluates the work, they themselves can decide where they think the product should be "lumped" in the blurry lines between styles and genres.

You can defend the territory that you deem to be ONLY qualified to be associated with term "flamenco" as you wish. While the world goes on about its business unphased and continues to do so.

Outside of your lessons (and the single, 25 year old YouTube video in your sig), where can I find your work? I need to put it up against the work contained on my Paco De Lucia albums to determine how much weight I should give your opinion over that of his seemingly very contrary opinion.

[Red_Label]

[double post]

[BuleriaChk]

Myself, I wouldn't give any weight to my opinion at all....... but if you're going to judge anyone i relation to PdL make sure you include his recording engineer.....:-)

"A critic is someone who goes down after the battle and shoots the wounded..."

Flamenco guitarist: "I only know two chords, but I really, REALLY like both of them..."
Jazz guitarist: "I know 20,000 chords, and I like all of them equally....."

(I remember going down to see PdL's first concert in LA - I even smuggled in a tape recorder. I couldn't believe anyone could go that fast with two finger picado in that long run in "Entre dos Aguas" (my conjecture was that he used 3). Suzie and I were in the second row, right in front of him; and yes indeed, he really did use two as far as I could tell, and went even faster and stronger and longer and no mistakes (I think I still have the tape somewhere). I got to shake his hand after the concert, and even resisted the temptation to try to sprain it somehow; but it sure looked and felt normal.....:-) And at that time, he even looked pretty straight (like the pictures on "Fantasia Flamenca" - which is pretty dry, IMO)

That said, I also have a Solea solo somewhere on YouTube; I've had to work for most of my life, and that and my course material was the best I could do on my own..... Hey, and if you ever get to Santa Barbara we can jam por Bulerias.......

Danny Staffler once told me that there was a difference between a musician who plays Flamenco and a Flamenco who plays guitar (as I remember) ....

I agree with Brook Zern's comments (Brook is an absolutely brilliant commentator on all things Flamenco); I just put a link to one of his brief pieces in the "CD" link in my Resources section). (Paco de Lucia actually has a 45 rpm record predating the LP "La Fabulosa Guitarra" that shows his debt to Nino Ricardo, among others) And I certainly agree that PdL is a musical genius with blinding technique. (Mark Twain on Wagner - I think - "His music is a lot better than it sounds..." kind of sums up what I feel about Paco de Lucia's non-flamenco offerings, all though I would add "to me". I do like most (but not all) of PdL's albums between the 45 and Almoraima.

But I've been on way too many Flamenco mailing list wars now, and I GOTTA (somehow) get OUTTA HERE!!!!!

And back to the multimedia document on Flamenco right hand technique I'm trying to get out before I get hit by a truck. I'm trying to get over how I look on video at 72 ...:-)

[RastaRobbie]

Flamenco Chuck
I would like to thank you for your website and the knowledge in it.
I find it to be a tremendous resource and very helpful!
Best of luck with all your endeavors !!

[Pedro Navaja]

Danny Staffler once told me that there was a difference between a musician who plays Flamenco and a Flamenco who plays guitar (as I remember) ....

That's a good quote Chuck. It also explains some of the behavior that Red Label has seen over at ForoFlamenco and the endless rants of Jason McG over on his forum. Apparently it's okay for Paco deL to engage in "Fakemenco" but it's not okay for Jesse Cook to do the same. That's because Paco is Flamenco while Jesse is just a guitarist. I was kinda shocked to see Paco deL in that Bryan Adams music video with that theme song from the Zorro movie. I mean nice movie and nice pop song, but what the hell was Paco deL doing in that video!

Anyways, I am enjoying the discussion.

P.S. What do you think of Ida y Vuelta? So does rumba count as Flamenco? Many think not.

[BuleriaChk]

If by "Ida Vuelta" you mean palos like Guajiras, Columbianas, etc., I am underwhelmed, although I will tinker with them if I get bored. Remember, Spain was pretty closed from the world until Franco died.. a lot of Rumba was from Northern Spain ("Rumba Catalan" from Carmen Amaya and Barcelona - possibly influenced by Gypsies in Southern France). Aside from a cut on "Queen of the Gypsies" and another on "Flamenco Fire" (both with Juan Maya "Marote" on guitar), and Peret/Bambino (some accompanied by Paco del Gastor yet..:-), there were few recordings that I know of...

"Entre dos Aguas" changed all that, of course (except in Moron and Jerez, and maybe some tablaos in Madrid...) EdA is easy to understand for the non-Flamenco, sounds good (derived from a jazz melody) and does have a recognizable beat and is (more or less) in Phrygian mode. I also noodle with it when I am bored....

Puro Flamenco is definitely an acquired taste for most outside of Spain (and for many inside), although some fall for it immediately. But you have to learn who the well-founded artists are - Chocolate vs Manolito el de la Maria vs Antonio Mairena vs Gypsy Kings (who can be, but are not often Flamenco).....:-)

(I am not, repeat NOT, a Flamencologist, however - I leave that to those too intelligent to take up the Flamenco guitar. More importantly, I am NOT Spanish, or Gitano; just a white/anglo American guy still trying to figure out where I fit in the human kaleidoscope and why I still don't like Lawrence Welk)

Originally Posted by Pedro Navaja

That's a good quote Chuck. It also explains some of the behavior that Red Label has seen over at ForoFlamenco and the endless rants of Jason McG over on his forum. Apparently it's okay for Paco deL to engage in "Fakemenco" but it's not okay for Jesse Cook to do the same. That's because Paco is Flamenco while Jesse is just a guitarist. I was kinda shocked to see Paco deL in that Bryan Adams music video with that theme song from the Zorro movie. I mean nice movie and nice pop song, but what the hell was Paco deL doing in that video!

Anyways, I am enjoying the discussion.

P.S. What do you think of Ida y Vuelta? So does rumba count as Flamenco? Many think not.

[FrankHS]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

It is a challenge to learn the techniques and it has some impressive fireworks. What it offers musically however only appeals to me to a very limited degree and even that for a very short time span.

Rick-slo, I feel the same way about even the kind of music I spend 100s of hours learning to play. Seems after 15 minutes of listening to any genre, my ears and emotions begin to glaze over, and it's time to go work on the model airplanes. Reminded how many how people can't stomach Lawence Welk for 10 seconds. I have an interview of Duke Ellington exclaiming, "But I like Welk!". So do I, for the same 15 minutes.