I Predict Classical Guitars

[strings4him]

Originally Posted by grantgsc

Too late, I already have the Holy Grail that I purchased a year ago. Thomas Prisloe
built it for me.

Good for you. I have read that Tom's Pavan guitars from Spain are also top-notch classical guitars

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by mc1

i'm pretty sure 2 of these have never made recordings. did barrios? did someone besides aguado comment on sor? i'm interested in comments on any of their tone. what's out there?

Fernando Sor died in 1839 before the advent of recording technology.

Francisco Tárrega died in 1909 so it is possible he made either wax cylinder recordings or gramophone recordings but I'm not aware of any.

I am aware of a 3 CD set of Barrios recordings, The Complete Guitar Recordings 1913-1942, which were digitized from 78 RPM records. It is only late in life that Barrios cut his nails and began using the flesh of his fingers, something that Segovia criticized.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Fernando Sor died in 1839 before the advent of recording technology.

Francisco Tárrega died in 1909 so it is possible he made either wax cylinder recordings or gramophone recordings but I'm not aware of any.

I am aware of a 3 CD set of Barrios recordings, The Complete Guitar Recordings 1913-1942, which were digitized from 78 RPM records. It is only late in life that Barrios cut his nails and began using the flesh of his fingers, something that Segovia criticized.

so, what evidence is there of their good tone? i'm genuinely interested.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

One by Pujol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=nHPmeIGW-jU

pretty. when i look at the text associated with this video, however, it reads:

Study 32 from Book 3 of the Escuela Razonada. Beautifully performed by guitarist Alain Trotte.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by wcap

When I bought my good classical about 6 or 7 years ago (I forget now) I concluded that there was a big difference in quality when I got about to the $1000 point (similar to your $800 figure). And I found some of the roughly $1000 ones (Burguet classical guitars) to be as good or better than any of the $3000 ones (e.g. Loriente, Bernabe, etc) The Podium had at that time period. I was down to a decision between a 1K Burguet vs. a 3K Loriente. A guy in the store who was a good classical player played them both for me with my eyes closed. I liked the Burguet better!
....

Maybe they start using all solid wood in guitars at the $800 to $1,000 level, just like with the steel string guitars, or at least better quality wood. I'm glad it wasn't just me who experienced this.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by mc1

so, what evidence is there of their good tone

That was *my* point.



...and I'm not trying to be contradictory or pedantic on this, it's just that we have modern instruments with modern strings that need (to my ears!) flesh and nail.

In regards to the OP, a well-made classical guitar (and some of the music played on it) is a wonderful, beautiful thing...but his statement means nothing to me.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by TBman

Maybe they start using all solid wood in guitars at the $800 to $1,000 level, just like with the steel string guitars, or at least better quality wood. I'm glad it wasn't just me who experienced this.

I don't know the basis of the difference, but I do know my Burguet seems to be almost light as a feather. Aside from the wood, I wonder whether these guitars are just built differently. The top looks so thin is sort of scares me, but this guitar sure sounds nice. It is lively and responsive, has as much volume as many steel strings (OK, maybe not so much as a dread or jumbo or other really loud guitar), and lovely tone.

I've never played a classical beyond about the 3K point. I'd love to experience what a world class classical guitar can be like, but I'm afraid to do so unless I'm prepared to spend a whole lot of money on a classical guitar upgrade! I think I need to be happy in my ignorance. My classical is more than adequate - the more important thing at this point is continuing to develop my playing......there is SO much more that could be done in this regard!

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by wcap

I don't know the basis of the difference, but I do know my Burguet seems to be almost light as a feather. Aside from the wood, I wonder whether these guitars are just built differently. The top looks so thin is sort of scares me, but this guitar sure sounds nice. It is lively and responsive, has as much volume as many steel strings (OK, maybe not so much as a dread or jumbo or other really loud guitar), and lovely tone.

My classical, a Takamine TH5C, is the opposite of this - it's built like the proverbial tank! Still sounds pretty good, though.

[fitness1]

the string tension of classicals is so much lesser that they require less bracing......don't worry about that Burguet, it's fine! I've owned a few (including my Aparicio) that are extremely lightly built.....even with rosewood back and sides.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by mc1

so, what evidence is there of their good tone? i'm genuinely interested.

I would think the evidence is in the recordings. You could listen to them and judge for yourself. I don't know what other evidence I could provide. I could say that the flesh produces a good tone and you might disagree just as you might if I said a certain guitar has a good tone and you thought not. Logically speaking, it is unlikely that a guitarist would switch from fingernails to finger flesh, as Barrios did, if the result were a loss of tone.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

I would think the evidence is in the recordings. You could listen to them and judge for yourself. I don't know what other evidence I could provide. I could say that the flesh produces a good tone and you might disagree just as you might if I said a certain guitar has a good tone and you thought not. Logically speaking, it is unlikely that a guitarist would switch from fingernails to finger flesh, as Barrios did, if the result were a loss of tone.

Did Barrios make this switch...?

...and again, you refer to the "recordings"...?

I may be vastly mistaken, but the players you referenced do not really have any recordings (except for one) and it appears to unavailable...so I'm not sure about your conclusion on this.

I may also be wrong, but I believe that during these player's lives, flesh-only may have been the standard, and the flesh and nail combination did not become popular until later on.

If so, then these players never experienced flesh and nail, and therefore the conclusion about "switching" is also suspect.

I might be 100% wrong...but the way I see it, playing styles have evolved with the instrument, the strings, and in regards to the evolution of the tone we want to hear...even if Barrios made this switch many, many years ago.

I'd prefer to not label either approach as "better" (or "best"), but we do have an overwhelming majority of current classical players using nail & flesh.

[strings4him]

I agree with Larry.

I have mostly played classical guitar. I have tried both ways. I have come to the conclusion that some nail and flesh truly provides the best sound.

Now, that being said , there is a modern-day advocate of the no-nail approach (see below). He, however, is clear that his approach is by no means the best. His approach tempted me to trim my nails--which once and for all "cured" me of the desire to play without nails. It took a few long weeks to grow them back!

http://www.sorstudies.co.uk/

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by wcap

If you think a classical guitar has a plink plink sound you either aren't playing a good one, or don't have good nails or good right hand technique.

+1. They do require a different approach than a steel string.
Brad

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Francisco Tárrega died in 1909 so it is possible he made either wax cylinder recordings or gramophone recordings but I'm not aware of any.

I remember reading about some Tárrega recordings being readied for release in Spain, but I don't remember any details and have yet to see any more info on them. It's been a few years, so maybe it was just optimism that they could be made suitable for release. I think, however, that any of his recordings, no matter how lo-fi, would be suitable for release, if only for historical reasons.
Brad

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Did Barrios make this switch...?

...and again, you refer to the "recordings"...?

I may be vastly mistaken, but the players you referenced do not really have any recordings (except for one) and it appears to unavailable...so I'm not sure about your conclusion on this. ...

Yes, Barrios made the switch.

See post #32, for the CD set of which I'm aware and where I don't make any claims about recordings from Sor or Tárrega. I have not heard the recordings, however. Barrios died in the 1940s so one would think it unlikely that he did not record. Some people believe Barrios was the first classical guitarist to record but that distinction belongs to another guitarist whose name I don't recall.