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Old 06-29-2020, 08:09 AM
Ralph124C41 Ralph124C41 is offline
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Default I can't read ... music. Help me!

It's embarrassing for me to admit but at my old age I never really learned to read music. I feel left out of learning and playing sooooooo many songs. I tend to use tabs or play along with Guitar Pro or .tef files or whatever but they are not available for many songs, especially the older ones, and some are very wrong I think.

I bought a book but it just didn't do the trick. I know I can memorize the notes as they appear ... but I seem totally lost on timing of the notes and how to progress through a song ... you know, repeats, the coda, etc.

So can you folks recommend some software or web pages or something that could help this geezer? Free would be best but low cost would be OK, too.

Thanks
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:30 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Congratulations, your musicality hasn't been confined and limited by tadpoles on telephone lines!

I've been playing music since the early '60s and playing guitar for a little less.

At no time has my wilful inability to read notation limited me although I have tried once or twice.

I can stagger slowly through tablature, but I find that tiresome and restrictive too - best just rely on my ears and fingers.

I used to go to a week long bluegrass "summer school" where i had the pleasure to study (?) with some great American musicians.

I was studying guitar with a very fine and well known singer-songwriter guitarist. (Note: being a fine artist does not make you a great teacher - in fact rarely!)
His pattern was to arrive in the classroom and announce what number he was going to play though that day. Then he'd hand out tablature, then pay though it a coupe of times then tell us (up to 20 of us) to go thrugh it and "he'd be back soon!" and shuffle off.
Twenty guitarists tried to stagger and stumble through the tab at varying speeds and abilities - not a pleasant noise.
One day, I got very tired of this and when he re-emerged I said "John, I simply cannot learn music from tab - would you please just play though it a little more slowly and let me watch your left hand.
He asked if anyone else was interested - many said yes.
he did so, and I followed his fngerng bu ear and by finger placement.
Then it was coffee break.

I went outside into the pleasant sunshine and played through it a few times.
oe then two then most of the guys came up to me and asked me to show them the piece.
(I should mention that i was FAR from the best mu8sician in the bunch, but I could show them what I'd gathered.

John, (our respected tutor) came thundering up to us - "What's going on!?"
"I'm just showing them what I picked up from watching your hands".
He was quite angry with me.

Moral? Notation (if you go through the pain of learning it) will show you what individual notes to play according to someone else. Same with notation -if you have the time.

Few readers of either can "sight read".
However, it is wise to learn some musical theory - scales, learning what Americans call the "Nashville Numbering system", Harmonising the Scale" etc., and learning the fretboard with the "CAGED".

Get those down, your a musician.
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ralph124C41 View Post
It's embarrassing for me to admit but at my old age I never really learned to read music. I feel left out of learning and playing sooooooo many songs. I tend to use tabs or play along with Guitar Pro or .tef files or whatever but they are not available for many songs, especially the older ones, and some are very wrong I think.

I bought a book but it just didn't do the trick. I know I can memorize the notes as they appear ... but I seem totally lost on timing of the notes and how to progress through a song ... you know, repeats, the coda, etc.

So can you folks recommend some software or web pages or something that could help this geezer? Free would be best but low cost would be OK, too.

Thanks
Hi Ralph

The best way to learn notation is a systematic approach, from simple to more difficult.

If you were to take a basic piano course from a community college, you'd be reading notes in a semester (or less). The porting that over to the guitar (or other instruments) would be another semester's work on your own.

I bet if you just bought a basic beginner guitar lesson book that had simple exercises on the names of notes and where they are associated with the staff, you'd be on your way.

I'm not sure why one would bother (and I read music). The songs I'm learning don't have notation available, and I play on a Worship Team where the music turns over so fast (40 new songs a year), and is chorally driven. Not sure what good a notated staff would do me with this.

If it's just playing simple melodies, then the beginner book to help you associate the notes and staff would be a good starting point.

Amazon: Hal Leonard Guitar Method, Complete Edition: Books 1, 2 and 3 Plastic Comb – May 1, 2002 - CLiCk

This is a systematic primer with notes associated with/to the fingerboard, with simple and familiar songs to learn the melodies while learning the notes.

Hal Leonard has been producing great progressive methods for decades with success. It's not necessary to learn the whole book, nor even learn everything in it in order. You can jump around (you already know a lot stuff in it). But the note reading section looked good. All cheaper than a single lesson…

I hope this helps…and contributes to the topic.





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Last edited by ljguitar; 06-29-2020 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Added a book suggestion…
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:57 AM
Ralph124C41 Ralph124C41 is offline
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thanks, folks.

To answer some notes, I already know music theory fairly well and I know my basic scales. I know the CAGED system and can form chords in various positions.

And I realize you don't need to sight read in some cases. For example for decades I played electric bass in your typical local band and did fairly well ... all without reading a note for many of the songs.

However I would like to learn how. It's frustrating when I go to some sheet music or I go online and I look at the sheet and I more or less have little idea what the song will sound like. For example a few times I volunteered to play bass or guitar in local churches and I would be given the sheet music and I would have to painstakingly and slowly plow through the music sheet. I could never do that "on the spot" so I would have to apologize and say I will go home and do my homework and then come back. What I would do, more or less, is to figure out the notes and then try to find a Youtube or other recording of the song to figure out the tempo. It usually worked ... well enough for what I was being paid (nothing) ... but it still left me feeling left out.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:35 AM
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In my experience, the most interesting thing about symbolic reduction is that the people who are most conversant in it seem to have a REALLY hard time communicating it to the people who least understand it. Ie. Many marvelous sight readers can do it but can't teach worth a hoot. However, my father, an environmental scientist, college professor, and a real genius (160 IQ), had a saying about that: "If you can't communicate a concept to a beginner, you really don't know it."

Bob
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ralph124C41 View Post
.......

It's frustrating when I go to some sheet music or I go online and I look at the sheet and I more or less have little idea what the song will sound like.

For example a few times I volunteered to play bass or guitar in local churches and I would be given the sheet music and I would have to painstakingly and slowly plow through the music sheet. I could never do that "on the spot" so I would have to apologize and say I will go home and do my homework and then come back. What I would do, more or less, is to figure out the notes and then try to find a Youtube or other recording of the song to figure out the tempo. It usually worked ... well enough for what I was being paid (nothing) ... but it still left me feeling left out.
Reading notation/tablature and hearing the music in your head is probably a rare skill. I don't have it. I have been writing my own instrumentals, writing tabs (with GuitarPro) and playing tabs from others for years and I can't do it.

I can hear a hint of melody in my head that I create; a mood; and translate it to my guitar, and then I punch it into GuitarPro which is the opposite of what you want to do.

I can sight read a little, but I have to listen to the tune to really get the right tempo and flow right just like you do.

I don't know the right way to get where you want to be. Maybe lessons with that as a priority, or an online course? There might be free guitar notation software available. Maybe put in a few bars of quarter notes, 8th and 16th randomly and then see if you can hear it in your head, then try playing it on the guitar, and then "play" the music through the software and see how close you come to it.

I think in the end it comes to the right guidance and plenty of practice. I'd be interested in what solution you find. Good luck with it.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:43 AM
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I would not “fret” about it. I learn a song usually from tab but I always get the notation with the tab. I have a basic understanding of music notation (took piano as a kid) and the notation along with the tab works well. I guess I’m too lazy to learn to sight read.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:59 AM
NormanKliman NormanKliman is offline
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... but I seem totally lost on timing of the notes and how to progress through a song...
If time values are want you want to learn, this part of my website might help.
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:32 AM
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I am not a fluent reader, but I can muddle through.

I've played guitar since I was about 9 or 10. (63 right now) It was never really a problem or blocker for me. I developed a pretty good ear, good enough to figure out what ever song or lead part I needed to (many years in cover bands forces you to get at least adequate there.)

when TAB got real popular, well finally some thing that was easy enough for my feeble mind! !!yay!!

But I did still feel that it would be nice to have some reading skills.

I took a pretty deep dive into learning piano that started in 2005 and through that, I finally acquired some reading chops.

I joined the music ministry at our catholic church about 5 years ago. And with what reading skills I do have, I can definitely say it helps quite a bit when I'm working out arrangements with the music director, (who is a totally mind blowing outstanding musician) We do a lot of traditional as well as contemporary instrumental pieces the reading helps there b/c it's music I otherwise would not be playing.
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
In my experience, the most interesting thing about symbolic reduction is that the people who are most conversant in it seem to have a REALLY hard time communicating it to the people who least understand it. Ie. Many marvelous sight readers can do it but can't teach worth a hoot. However, my father, an environmental scientist, college professor, and a real genius (160 IQ), had a saying about that: "If you can't communicate a concept to a beginner, you really don't know it."

Bob
Hi Bob

Smart and capable doesn't mean people are automatically a teacher (much less a good teacher). You know that though already…

Breaking concepts into bite sized chunks and building a progressive system which will take other players to a higher level of proficiency (and designing the exercises to take people there) is work. It's one reason guitar teachers come-n-go.

I was an excellent musician when I hit college, but devoid of teaching experience, and limited in my ability to play with non-educated musicians (who often played better than me).

I was an education major, and they taught us solid educational principles to be able to design ways to transfer information in manageable form. And I started playing folk guitar with friends who didn't read nor want to learn to read notes.

Four years of education classes and an entire semester of student teaching barely prepared me to hang out a shingle and begin turning out good guitar players. So my students and I grew together.

As a musician, I read (and transcribe), Transpose on the fly, know TAB, can play by ear or using charts, Solfedge (fixed or sliding Do), Nashville numbers, Figured Bass etc. When I show up to play with a group of musicians I just want to know which language they speak so we are up and making music quickly.

I'm not there to show them how educated I am. Just want to make good music.

If the sax player needs a few notes transcribed, I can whip out the iPad, hand draw a staff and write the part out and message it to his/her phone.

If the keyboard player needs to know which inversion the Hammond right hand should have, I can show them. If someone needs to learn a chord fingering, I can show them. And if I need to know a chord fingering they can show me.






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Old 06-29-2020, 02:14 PM
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I look at the sheet and I more or less have little idea what the song will sound like.
That's an different skill than translating notes to an instrument IMO. Closely related, but separate. For that, you need to mentally learn to "hear" intervals and chords. For example, you could see a C followed by an F on the staff, and then play those notes on the guitar, but can you hear that interval of a fourth in your head?

I grew up as a vocalist, so that was an important skill. To "sight sing", you had to be able to imagine the intervals from one note to the next, and/or from the root, and hear them in your head so you could sing them. Not an easy skill! This takes ear training as well as facility with reading notation.

Quote:
What I would do, more or less, is to figure out the notes and then try to find a Youtube or other recording of the song to figure out the tempo.
It also sounds like you may struggle with tempo and rhythm. Of course, if a song isn't marked with a tempo, you will need to have somebody else demonstrate for you. But again, feeling that beat in your head (60 is once per second, 120 twice, etc.) and studying rhythmic notation to get the beat of the song.

Finally, same thing with arrangement. You just have to learn the symbols and their meaning and practice. But even experienced musicians will go over the arrangment ahead of time, and sometimes highlight their score so it's easier to flip back and forth.
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:20 PM
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There is 'reading' and then there is 'sight reading'. Sight reading is the more advanced ability. If you can get a piece of music and play it correctly on first sight then you can sight read. If it takes a while to get the correct notes in the correct time but after a while you can start to get it something like right, that is what I call reading.

Some sorts of music are easier to read than others. Fiddle or mandolin folk tunes are usually easy to read as they are single note melodies, there are no chords and each note has a single way of being played. Guitar music can be more difficult because up to six notes can be played at once and each note can usually be played in more than one position. Whilst reading guitar music you have more decisions to make or more problems to solve.

There is another factor to take into account. After you have correctly played a tune through more than a couple of times you will begin to remember it. From then on you might be looking at the dots but you will be playing from memory. In order to improve your reading skills you need a large amount of material and only read a tune once and then move on to read the next. To put this another way you have to keep practicing reading separate from learning material. Treat them as distinct activities. They are both worth doing but do them at different times.
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:53 PM
Ralph124C41 Ralph124C41 is offline
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Thanks, folks. I ve just now printed out some note cards to test my knowledge. Or lack of it.

But I also need to know how to read the road map that is a piece of sheet music. You know "Play this passage once, then on the second time you skip to this section and play it twice, then you go to this passage, then you go to the coda."

Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

It's all very intimidating frankly. The notes. The tempo. The playing route, etc.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:37 PM
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There are so many resources for this. Just google "how to read music" and you'll get a ton of resources - the first video I see actually looks pretty good (piano-based, but...) and is "how to learn to read in 15 minutes", and it looks to me like it delivers on its promise. (You will have to practice what you learn, tho)

As far as the structure stuff, you just have to know a few symbols, like the repeat sign. And a few special abbreviations, like "D.S al Coda", which means go back to the symbol and play to till you see a coda sign, or "D.C al Coda", which means go to the top and then play to the coda. There's maybe a dozen of these. Here's one page that lists many:

http://learnmusictheory.net/PDFs/pdf...epeatSigns.pdf

I think for guitarists, reading music is mostly useful for understanding music a bit better. Most guitar music these days comes as tab. But being able to see the standard notation makes it easier to understand chord construction, scales and so on. Reading well enough to sight-read is nice, but less useful unless you're playing in an orchestra or other group where they're going to hand out music and expect you to play it.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:50 PM
Ralph124C41 Ralph124C41 is offline
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That web page is already in my bookmarks.

I'd like to read music so I can play some songs which are not often found as guitar pieces or can be found as guitar tabs ... songs such as some fiddle tunes and Celtic pieces.
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