Expression system vs. Fishman system?

doug633 · #1 04-03-2008, 03:52 PM

Every Taylor I've ever owned until recently has had the Expression System. The whole reason I wanted a Taylor in the first place was because of how amazing my friend's 1999 814ce sounded and how well it played. I've never quite been able to get the ES to dial in to that crisp, clear, bassy sound that I seem to get from the legacy Fishman system. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Any ES fans out there? How do you set it - both on the guitar and on the board? I've got a brand new 810ce with the ES but am usually taking my 2001 414ce to gigs because it sounds better plugged in.

miteemike3 · #2 04-03-2008, 04:00 PM

If I could give people one piece of advice when asking about how to make the ES sound better, I would say PARAMETRIC EQ. Really, I've gotten the best results by sweeping to the lowest midrange frequency possible both on my amp and on my preamp (BBE Acoustimax) and dialing down the midrange gain as well. It does still retain a slightly magnetic sound and it won't have the same sound as your piezo equipped 414ce, but it's a lot more natural and less metallic and electric sounding. Give it at try.

sdelsolray · #3 04-03-2008, 05:58 PM

The Taylor legacy Fishman config is a single UST with pre/eq. The ES system is a three source set of pickups (mag and two dynamic SBTs) passively blended to mono followed by a pre/eq. Those are quite different animals. It would be impossible to make them sound the same in the first place. They sound different.

doug633 · #4 04-04-2008, 01:25 PM

I called the factory last night and learned quite a bit about my new Taylor that I didn't really know. The pickup (contrary to what the video says) does matter where the volume level is set. The dvd says turn it all the way up and then manage the sound from your amp. The tech suggested I might be overdriving the system so I turned it down to about halfway and turned up the channel it was plugged in to. What a difference! The feedback was gone (I use a loop and a reverb/boost pedal to solo over which used to require me to use a feedback buster) and the sound was amazingly true. I think I'm a believer again in the Expression System.

P.S. thanks to everyone's references to the upgraded ES system. I had no idea it had a battery light. My 2006 814ce would get distorted during gigs and that was the only way I would know my batteries were dying!

MattM · #5 04-04-2008, 01:26 PM

I really like the ES system, and it will give you high quality sound if you take some time to get to know the system and how to EQ it. The key is that it is primarily a magnet based system and as such will sound much different than any system based on a UST, and needs different frequencies cut to get a good sound than what you are used to cutting for the Fishman. Particularly with a rosewood guitar like the 810, a good EQ will be absolutely critical to getting the sound you want - trust me it will totally change the character of what you are hearing. Google forum member Doug Young and you will find very detailed articles and videos posted with great advice on EQing magnetic pickups. I'll post a link tonight when I get home. If you take the time to do this, I think you will find that it is a much more natural sound than what your ears think of as "normal".

wagtail · #6 04-05-2008, 12:32 PM

I'm having a hard time finding the Expression System info from Doug Young. Any further specifics that can help with this?

MattM · #7 04-05-2008, 08:24 PM

He does not have specific articles regarding ES, but more on general EQing of magnets (I have a Sunrise and it actually sounds similar in many ways to the ES). Here is an article with a lot of helpful info and video demonstrations of EQ techniques for mags:

http://www.fingerpick.com/pickups.htm

DADGADER · #8 04-06-2008, 09:16 PM

Matt, Thanks for posting that link. Lot's of good info there!!

Joe F · #9 04-07-2008, 07:57 AM

We had a visiting band in our church yesterday. Their guitarist had an older 410 with the Fishman Prefix Plus. I have been playing ES equipped Taylors in our church for about 4 years not counting about 11 months in 2007 where I tried an onboard Aura for awhile.

How anyone could prefer the sound of a piezo UST to the ES is a total mystery to me. When I first started using the ES in a move from a Fishman Prefix Plus equipped 314CE myself, my sound board engineer was not happy, it was not what he was used to. It did not sound like the amplified acoustic guitars he had been hearing all his life. After awhile though, it grew on him, especially when we got the mids tweaked.

Yesterday when this guy plugged his Prefix Plus in, both the sound engineer and I winced. Thin, brittle, almost shrill sounding, and QUACKY! It did not matter what we did at the board EQ. Boosting the bass, sweeping the mids, rolling off the highs, nothing seemed to warm it up. I know you can run these through Aura's or Mama Bears to add some life to them. I'd say that is an absolute neccessity. My sound engineer said "I can't believe that's the sound I used to equate with amplified acoustic guitars!" The funny part was that I had let the guy run through my K4 and afterwards his comment was "Man I gotta get one of those. That's the best my guitar has ever sounded!!"

Once again, here is a comparo I did awhile back between the two systems. Both totally raw and flat with no EQ.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...9&d=1195659802

D. Dubya · #10 04-08-2008, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug633

The whole reason I wanted a Taylor in the first place was because of how amazing my friend's 1999 814ce sounded and how well it played. I've never quite been able to get the ES to dial in to that crisp, clear, bassy sound that I seem to get from the legacy Fishman system.

The 800s in '99 had the Prefix Pro Blender with a soundhole mic. I always loved the sound of those too. You really wouldn't get that with the old 300/400 series Prefix or ES.

wthurman · #11 04-08-2008, 04:05 AM

I really don't care much for either system, for different reasons. To me, any pickup system is by definition (so far) a compromise in sound, made for convenience of 1. movement and, 2. tonal control, pretty much in that order. It's not a bad compromise to make, but a compromise nonetheless. The Fishman sounds quacky to me, and the ES sounds magnetic - especially when playing single/double note lines.

My particular compromise of choice is an SBT, and while I like it, it's still a compromise. As time goes by we get less sensitive to almost any compromise because, like the sound guy mentioned in Joe F's post, it's an acoustoidish flavor of sound with which we become familiar, and which we learn to get around with a combination of tweaking and convenience.

IMO...

Nelson · #12 04-08-2008, 05:42 AM

I'm pleased with the ES in my '03 414ce limited. In Feb of last year I had the '07 ES system put in as a replacement to the original ES. I'm very pleased with it. Once I figured out the mid EQ this system really came alive for me.

I also own an older '02 514ce in which the Fishman Blender has been replaced with an L.R. Baggs Element Onboard. I like the tone but it has a definate "quack" which is inherent in just about all UST systems.

As Wade mentioned, every guitar amplification system is a compromise in some manner. Even the ES is not going to give you a true tone. In reality, nothig will make your guitar sound as natural as it does unplugged and as we all know, it is a mater of personal preference. I don;t necessicarily carewha tothers think of a particular system. If I like it, then that's all that matters because I'm the one who has to live with it.

Joe F · #13 04-08-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade Thurman

I really don't care much for either system, for different reasons. To me, any pickup system is by definition (so far) a compromise in sound, made for convenience of 1. movement and, 2. tonal control, pretty much in that order. It's not a bad compromise to make, but a compromise nonetheless. The Fishman sounds quacky to me, and the ES sounds magnetic - especially when playing single/double note lines.

My particular compromise of choice is an SBT, and while I like it, it's still a compromise. As time goes by we get less sensitive to almost any compromise because, like the sound guy mentioned in Joe F's post, it's an acoustoidish flavor of sound with which we become familiar, and which we learn to get around with a combination of tweaking and convenience.

IMO...

Wade, I heard your K&K's at Monroestock. If I were not in a loud band situation, that would definitely be my choice over a UST or the ES. Very nice sound indeed. I just don't want to have to contend with the feedback issues they have in loud environments. That was a GREAT plugged in sound you had on your GS though.

doug633 · #14 04-08-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Dubya

The 800s in '99 had the Prefix Pro Blender with a soundhole mic. I always loved the sound of those too. You really wouldn't get that with the old 300/400 series Prefix or ES.

I'm not sure all of the 800's from 1999 had the soundhole mic. I'm pretty familiar with the guitar and it has the same Fishman system as my 2001 414ce. I've seen the soundhole mic's before - but this one didn't have it...

stevecuss · #15 04-08-2008, 08:47 AM

Hi Guys,

we have a Taylor 314 with ES for our church band and we're trying to dial in the best tone possible. I've been a longtime fan of the Baggs PADI as a one stop DI/Paraeq. We get great results with the PADI running either a mandolin with K&K or my Langejans with Baggs imix, but we can't seem to get good tone from the Taylor with ES into the PADI. ES into PADI gives a honky midrange and very little presence in the mix. ES straight to standard DI to board sounds decent. Has anyone had good experience here? I'm not good with impedance matching issues etc, but I wonder if perhaps these two units simply don't play well together?

thanks

Steve